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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 17366
[Schools/Ed]
Date Posted:
2/27/2007
10:58:43 am EST
Wvox Stats
Views: 9,436
RSS: 19,098
Comments: 24
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Proposal Would Stop Educators From Political Talk In Classrooms
Author: Arizona Republic Source: KVOA (AZ)
Title: PROPOSAL WOULD STOP EDUCATORS FROM POLITICAL TALK IN CLASSROOMS
To muzzle instructors who champion political views in classrooms, an Arizona legislator has proposed a law that would punish public school teachers and professors for not being impartial in the classroom.
If the idea were to become law, teachers said they might shy away from teaching controversial issues out of fear of being misunderstood and punished.
Senate Majority Leader Thayer Verschoor, R-Gilbert, wrote the bill that has drawn a stream of criticism and support since it received preliminary approval in a Senate committee this month.
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Community Thoughts: There are 24 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Government Classes Why Have Them | Feb 27th. at 11:03:44 pm EST
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Lucretia (Mesa, Arizona) - Email Me
So living in Arizona all my life, I don't agree with half of what is said or done. But why propose such a bill when we are a state that makes Government a mandatory class for seniors in high school in most of the districts. Somebody was not thinking this one through. What will the kids talk about?
" oh I take government so I can memorize the constitution". That is great and all but Government class is 90% debate about the politics of the USA.
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| I'm Not Long Out Of A Public School System, | Feb 27th. at 11:00:48 pm EST
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Becky (Olean, Ohio) - Email Me - Web
and found it really sad that I didn't actually learn to *think* until I got to college. Most of my teachers couldn't or wouldn't teach us to think for ourselves; they'd risk losing their jobs or losing control of their students. Fact-regurgitating automatons are much easier to keep from shooting each other in the parking lot. I can't see much good coming to AZ public school systems from this measure, although I like the idea of keeping politial *and* religious indoctrination out of classrooms (in the sense of 'if you don't agree with me, you don't pass') . For a lot of students, debate and discussion are all that gets them through history or government classes. Take that way and you take away one of the only effective tools those teachers have left, since many teachers will fear to touch controversial topics and yet again, the students will suffer. This proposal also doesn't seem like it'll do much to protect minors from hyper-preachy religiously motivated teachers like the man in New Jersey; rather, this looks like a way to protect the political status quo, which right now isn't something I'd wish to bring a child into.
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| Hmm An Interesting Law.... | Feb 27th. at 10:55:10 pm EST
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Dennis Deal (Nazareth, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
But I think it wont stand up under the Constitution... It look like it is trying to expandon the idea that a minister should not be preaching politics from the pulpit.
And Tzimisce if you want to see how well socialism can work look to Norway.. It can work, but first we have to get away from the idea that we are the police man of the world.
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| Hrmmm... | Feb 27th. at 6:50:36 pm EST
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Lady Katyara (Milford, Connecticut) - Email Me
I agree and would like to submit that I got pretty watered down history lessons as a child. I also learned at a time in flux when we went from "Chris Columbus discovered america" to " Chris Columbas never landed in America, we knew the world was round and Oh.. we 'think' he abused Natives."
I say think because I think this law is already in play so schools don't suffer a lawsuit.
I do remember one rather good history class in which debates were had, but I don't recall the teacher saying his opinion at all and it was mostly about ours. Things like gun control were discussed and what the political parties meant. For example, what is liberal and conservative. It was alot of fun. I think avoiding politics in the class is like not teaching science for fear it might counteract others veiws. I honestly think there is a way to present our goverment system without betraying your veiwpoint.
Basiclly I think you just have to be a good teacher. I do understand how hard it can be, as much as I love history and kids I would never teach it. Kids are wonderful. They ask things like "why" and in history, explaining motivations for actions can get a mite hairy.
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| Politics/history/religion - Its All Opinion | Feb 27th. at 6:39:06 pm EST
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
The reality of life is that politics contains very few facts that can be taught without saying what the people believe - or claim to believe. History is what we think (or believe) happened because mostly we weren't there and nobody knows what people thought or actually did except in a very few cases. Religion is entirely what we believe as no living person was present for any of the claimed events - in any religion - and we are all running on faith there.
I guess that leaves silence in nearly all classrooms. Political speach and opinions is what the 1st amendment is all about and exposing our children to debate and controversy is how they learn to think for themselves. People who are afraid that new and controversial opinions will make their children turn away from their parent's beliefs should remember that never exposing a child to the flaws in your belief system increases the probability that they will leave your belief system the first time they hear something negative about it.
It does not matter what beliefs the person trying to smother thought and speach has, or how good it sounds, once you can shut me up about something, you can shut me up about anything - and the group in charge can change radically so the speach protected today can be the speach suppressed tomorrow - eventually no speach will be allowed.
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| Who Are The Ones Afraid Of Diverse Opinions? | Feb 27th. at 6:16:08 pm EST
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karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin) - Email Me - Web
More frequently than not, they are the same people who believe in one true and right religion and/or political worldview or party (Democrat or Republican...whatever) .
One cannot teach politics and history without touching on that which others would find controversial.
In a society already so well trained to take or listen to polarized views on issues as the whole truth and nothing but the truth, what happens with this sort of censorship is that "conservative" (what an abused term these days!) views become the norm [Web LINK] and anything else become controversial and verboten.
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| Might As Well Order Them To Stop Breathing. | Feb 27th. at 5:26:07 pm EST
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
This might be fine-unless one is teaching a course in current events, political science or history of any kind. Even the basic classes can be rife with political intent. Even if one doesn't bring up one's own political views- the question of views will be raised by someone. After all, enquiring minds will want to know. Even if they stick to the cirriculum it would be next to impossible not to discuss politics at some point.
While it is well and good not to foist one's own political opinions in the classroom-it would be hard not to at least explain why those opinions exist if the question comes up.
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| I Agree This Is Set Up | Feb 27th. at 5:09:42 pm EST
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Ander s. Drake (hays, Kansas) - Email Me
this is nothing but some right wing nutcase whating to sanatize the class room of all opions that might come into conflict with his ridged religous beliefs. The fact of the matter is that objective education naturely comes into conflict with beleifs that are based from an illlogical cult and when put to the test can't not be proven to be absolute. This is as bad as the relgious freedom act Albert Gonzales come up with, it gives specital rights to one group.
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| Too Many "what Ifs?" | Feb 27th. at 4:10:48 pm EST
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Amtehuti (Queens, Florida) - Email Me
If a person believes intelligent design is a bunch of political correct tripe, is only teaching evolution a violation of this law? If a person were to teach that one side or the other did cruel things during a war, is that a political opinion? Where does it stop? Too many things are political opinions. Most school textbooks are BASED on such opinions. Schools aren't for memorizing facts but for understanding how to socially interact in the world. Without some sort of conflict, these kids will graduate with no idea of how to refute an argument or even how to present an idea.
I'm not saying teachers should spout their opinions, but there is a time and place for opinions. Political opinions will ALWAYS be brought up, if only in the eye of the beholder. Does anyone really want the job of judging all the nuances such a law would create?
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| Education | Feb 27th. at 2:55:25 pm EST
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Morning Light (Fairplay, Colorado) - Email Me
On a very basic level, the job of a teacher is to present what they know and believe to a student. The basic job of the student is to learn things from the teacher, or hire a different teacher. It's like an apprentice and their "master". (Teacher is master is several of the romance languages)
That is the basis. Now public education, as the history unfolded in this country, was designed to teach good old American values, language and history. To make the citizenry "one people", and one nation. Since most of us were foreigners (immigrants) or had a variety of languages spoken in the home, or of different Christian denominations, or plain different beliefs and maybe even libertarians or atheist in the mix, not many pagans though (sigh) . So we teach the American way, and the American way of looking at history and social development etc.
Good teaching practices justify bringing current events into the classroom. Most K12 teachers will present the material in a fair manner. Many also express their own opinions. As they get closer to graduating from High School, the teachers try to challenge their belief systems. It is the right of such students NOT to take the position of the teacher as coming from on high written in stone tablets, etc. And many a student has challenged a teacher and sometimes taken them to court for extreme views or through inapropriate statements. This too is good. But to pass a law mandating that teacher not express an opinion, is contrary to the spirit of education. No society remains static. No set of beliefs are held forever. And how is one to decide if a belief expressed by a teacher is societal norm, or blasphemy. No, I cannot in good conscience support such a bill or such a stance.
Education needs to remain unfettered. And isn't it fascinating that an extreme view, like this senators provokes a lively debate. Ah, maybe we should pass a law that a politician cannot express their opinion on the campaign trail, or in congress. Do you think that would fix the political system?
) O (
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| Theory And Practice | Feb 27th. at 2:19:44 pm EST
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
In theory this proposal is merely an extension of existing legal principles, that it's an abuse of power for government officials to use official status or powers to promote specific religious, political, or other biases while acting as such agents, but are entitled to do so otherwise when acting as private persons outside such official roles.
In practice, that's a very difficult distinction to implement with practical remedies, especially when Constitutional principles and critical thinking skills schools necessarily are entrusted to teach about and develop as personal processes within students require classroom inclusion of controversial issues, when relevant to lesson plans of many subjects.
Arizona has been home to some incredibly subversive RRR organizations, which specialize in developing underhanded tactics to circumvent Constitutional law and impose Dominionist dogma via the fraud of facially neutral laws with intent which is not just accidental, but malicious, tactical dogma based bias intended to cause unConstitutional discriminatory effects. It's also home to some hard core libertarians. In that context, it may be unavoidable that in order to enforce legal theory, practice will require tools which lead to divisive, hostile litigation. That tends to mean Dominionist predators and religious psychotics advocate such legal process thinking it will give them a free pass to run roughshod over the Constitution, but then find minority religionists (as legally defined, which includes atheists and secularists) use such legal process to hoist such pseudo-moralistic predators by their own petards.
If well drafted and implemented in legal practice, this Bill might well be a useful legal tool to protect legal speech and restrict abuse of power. In practice, that can be a big and messy "IF".
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| I Have To Say... | Feb 27th. at 1:39:35 pm EST
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Sparrow (Chicago, Mississippi) - Email Me
that this a touch ridiculous. Yes, it's important that kids can speak up in class about their views on politics - because otherwise how can we learn and not just regurgitate what our parents views are? - and there are teachers out there who want you to say you believe exactly as they do in order to pass their class. BUT, there are also teachers out there who will tell you their views, tell you why they are that way, and then want your input.
I've had one of each, in high school and college. I barely made it out of a World Civics class in college because I had different world view than my teacher's. Let's just say it took me until midterms to realize that I wasn't doing well on my papers and such and to put two and two together. But in high school, I had a liberal teacher who loved her causes - such as ending world hunger and stopping people from wearing fur. She taught English, but she always made time for us to sit and talk as a class. Mrs. Miller didn't eat meat (at least at the time I was in her class ^__^) and we had a lot of guys in there that went deer hunting religiously. They would debate - and it often turned into a class debate - and they would occasionally argue. But at the end of class, she would smile and hug the guys and send us on our way. The only reason most of the guys in my class didn't do well is because it was first thing in the morning and they often slept through the first half of class and didn't do the homework assignments.
The point is, not all teachers are made the same, and not all students are, either. This bill generalizes both these groups of people and if teachers have this law hanging over their heads, many teachers like my own Mrs. Miller, who inspired years of senior English students to think for themselves, they're more likely to step away from such subject matter. This almost feels like a push in the opposite direction of making this country more open-minded and willing to work as a nation, rather than a bunch of different people all living in the same place.
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| I Agree, However Only Up To 8th Grade. | Feb 27th. at 1:18:12 pm EST
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Sleepycougar (Sierra Vista, Arizona) - Email Me
This is appropriate for children, inappropriate for young adults.
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| Tailgunner Joe Would Love This Law | Feb 27th. at 1:08:28 pm EST
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Opus the Poet (Garland, Texas) - Email Me - Web
McCarthy redux.
Commies under the bed! Lib'ruls teaching our chillllll-drun!
Opus
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| The Bill, If It Became Law Won't Work. | Feb 27th. at 12:26:17 pm EST
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Libertarian (Langley, Washington) - Email Me - Web
However, I have an idea. Allow each student who wants too bring a recording device to class and let the teachers do their thing.
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