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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 21283
[Society]
Date Posted:
10/21/2009
4:45:12 pm EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 3,209
RSS: 16,086
Comments: 10
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1st Sweat Lodge Survivor Speaks Out
Author: Felicia Fonseca, Associated Press Source: Tampa Bay Online
Title: 1ST SWEAT LODGE SURVIVOR SPEAKS OUT
A woman who took part in an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony tells The Associated Press that the spiritual guru who led the event pushed participants too far in what was supposed to be a life-expanding experience that culminated with people vomiting and passing out on the floor.
Texas resident Beverley Bunn is the first participant in the tragic incident to speak out publicly about the events that led up to the deaths. The 43-year-old told the AP in a series of interviews this week that by the time the sweat lodge ceremony began, the participants had undergone days of physically and mentally strenuous events that included fasting. In one game, guru James Arthur Ray even played God.
Within an hour of entering the sweat lodge on the evening of Oct. 8, people began vomiting, gasping for air and collapsing. Yet Bunn says Ray continually urged everyone to stay inside.
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Community Thoughts: There are 10 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Thanks To Con Men Like Ray... | Oct 23rd. at 7:37:18 pm EDT
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Seleya (Prescott, Arizona) - Email Me
...most of the Indian Reservations now close their sacred ceremonies to us "white folk" (any non-Indian) . Non Indians weren't always allowed to participate by all tribes, but many tribes did include non-Indians that they trusted.
Now, most aren't even welcome at Pow Wows. Indians will sell us their crafts, take our money, and that's all they'll have to do with us.
Most people have little or no respect for the religions or religious cultures of indigenious peoples. We adopt and adapt their practices with no regard for the wholeness of the practice. We think we're being "spiritual" because we perform a bastardised version of an indigenious religious ceremony.
Many pagans and Wiccans use "smudge" in their ceremoneis today; sage, sweetgrass, cedar, etc. as if it was part of our culture. Do we really have respect and understand the spirits we invoke this way? Are we really connected culturally or religiously to these practices?
I don't believe so. The idea of a con-man using an "imitation" Sweat Lodge to con desperate people out of their money and then kill or injure them in the process is not only criminal but pure evil.
I think Ray should spend the rest of his life behind bars. Let him do his "Sweat Lodges" for his fellow inmates, and see how long HE lasts.
Seleya
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| Many Factors | Oct 23rd. at 2:31:29 pm EDT
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William Anderson (Alsfeld, Germany) - Email Me
As a teacher and leader of Sweat Lodges I can say that there are 2 major problems here. One is the obvious negative tilt of the journalist and the second is the negligence bordering on criminal intent of the seminar leader.
Yes, it happens that people can become ill in the Lodge and have the feeling that they must or will vomit. Most of the time this is caused by eating before the Lodge or drinking too much water in the pauses. It is possible that people have the feeling that they cannot breath but the question then is why do they have enough breath to complain?
In a Sweat Lodge deep processes can come up and if the person is not willing to delve the depths of their personal problems then the Sweat is not a place for them.
I have been in and hold Lodges that regularly last more than 3 hours. The Lodge is dark and covered with many layers of blankets. However what is described in the article borders on criminal. Water is not dumped gallon wise on the stones but rather with a ladle. More than a ladle at a time and serious burns can happen.
Yes, sometimes people want out. It is normal to try and support them in some manner to help them continue the ritual. However, when one says they must leave the lodge - normally there is a phrase like a safe word - it is to be respected by the leader.
It is hard not to play god and what not in such a ritual. It is therefore all the more necessary for Sweat Lodge leaders to be humble and remember that we do this not only for ourselves but all of our relatives and we are only a servant not a demigog.
It is one thing for a individual that lives closer to nature to need harder processes like 5 days of fasting to reach certain states of mind. Soft city folk need far less to be stressed to the point that they can reach these states.
If just half of the charges in the article are true then this man has no buisness leading a Sweat.
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| Scale | Oct 22nd. at 2:20:57 pm EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
A bank deposit for all practical purposes is infinitely scalable, though electronic efficiencies don't apply to most personal or small business processing as they do to huge retailers.
Traditional rituals are designed for size and scale limits of their cultural origins, and not "as seen on Oprah" mass marketing. That's especially true in rituals that intentionally push people past usual limits, rather than ones that are largely ceremonial.
This article seems to suggest there was no specific toxin used recklessly as some previous ones suggested, but just commercial whoring out backed by and unlikely without the involvement of Harpo Productions. It's amazing the kind of trusting cult following Oprah has, and how well her business has done intimidating doctors from speaking out more visibly when in hushed reports, some have noted that her show does repeatedly present erroneous information, or risky practices without adequate background information. Given her ability to launch new TV careers for book authors like Dr. Phil or Oz, clearly some professionals subject to formal ethics and licensing are willing to bite their tongues rather than act more responsibly.
When I've done physical facilitation of vision quest retreats or sweat lodges, in conjunction with either a published author or unknown outside his own private group shamans, a precondition among other prior preparation is that the shaman and I, and preferably other participants in most cases, know if someone is mildly hypoglycemic or has other issues that are manageable special needs, and that anyone fasting and stressed to possible visions or disconnection from rational awareness is mirrored by another person "holding space" for them. That kind of ritual supplements the ability of the facilitators to pay attention to everyone's condition, but it limits the capacity to push more participants than can reasonably be supported in cases of medical, weather, or emotional surprises. It's also a reason why commercial for-profit rituals are so disdained by many who take them seriously. Suggesting someone with medical issues not suited for disruption of diet or daily rhythms not attend even in a near-fasting fire tender and place holder role comes ahead of any money interest.
It's not entirely a "failure" if someone can't handle the full cycle of physical and mental stresses used to enable peak experiences for others. Learning about one's limits can be valuable, just as experiences outside what one formerly knew can be. A group too big for facilitators to stay connected to every individual's safety, physically and mentally, is reckless even if no one becomes grossly dehydrated, heat exhausted, shocky, or delusional. It sounds like Mr. Ray instead is a "Kool-Aid" guru, or "Flavor Aid" to be more precise. His type might better try a dose of its own medicine than be promoted by Harpo's business machine.
What are these people doing entering a lodge without being fully hydrated? Why with a large group is a hose and small "fire nozzle" for wetdown not present in desert conditions, at a commercial center, with a well visible in some of its crime scene photos? If someone due to fasting and weather, or heat and dehydration, starts to collapse, in the field or the lodge, it can take 3-4 people to support each such person, carrying them back from the desert or woods, or out of the lodge and monitoring intake of water, fruit juices, emotional state, etc. There should be a contingency plan for transport to an ER, even if the goal is seeing that it's never used. There should be an ability to evaluate blood pressure, pulse, serum glucose, respiration, and mental state, of everyone fasting or inducing visions. One paid nurse for 60 participants, all of whom are sold the full experience and not in traditional roles where there should have been 6 different events with over half the participants in each supporting the others questing in small enough groups to be monitored as needed, would be reckless even without multiple likely counts of negligent homicide in this event.
Ooops.
I wonder if James Ray is studying laws of countries that refuse extradition to the US, or anticipating bankruptcy? Most liability insurance has exceptions for cases of criminal felonies, while serious crimes often eliminate any liability limits from corporate shields. Oprah and Harpo Productions are likely legally immune though, even if ethically involved.
Find More info -- HERE
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| The Teacher Is Always Responsible | Oct 22nd. at 10:53:50 am EDT
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Maeven (Los Angeles, California) - Email Me
for the care of their students. Those people trusted him as an expert who should know the warning signs of a sweat gone bad. The role of a teacher in such a situation is to monitor the safety of the students so that the can relax into the metaphysical journey. He is meant to be both guide and a safety watch. It is expected that he know the signs of danger to watch out for in a situation like this. These people aren't as versed in these kind of details regarding sweat lodges. They paid money to him believing that he knew all about this, as so many others had done it before their group.
Also, as another poster commented, they were already sleep deprived and had fasted for 3 days. They were no longer fully able to think lucidly for themselves completely by this point. And a few did get near the door and one went out the back. Once a body starts to shut down, it's pretty much over. Many of them has slipped past coherence by then, unable to function, communicate or have normal survival instinct about staying out of the fire.
The fact that this man just simply watched them be carted off and did nothing, and plans to keep churning money with another group, says it all. Is this really the caliber of a shaman you would want in charge of your safety for that kind of price?
I hope he's not truly Native American and that they blast his a@@ out of there.
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| How Dreadful | Oct 22nd. at 5:45:27 am EDT
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Errapel (Lowestoft, England) - Email Me
It's easy to say that people were just stupid, and I can't quite understand why anyone would pay that much for the privilege. But I think the reason conmerchants like this guy do so well is force of personality. People trust them. They believe that this person will look out for them and knows what they're doing. So I'm sure many people didn't leave because they thought he knew what he was doing, and didn't fully realise the danger they were in. Not to mention they were all dehydrated, sleep deprived and had fasted for quite some time before hand, I don't know anyone who's capable of thinking all that clearly in that state.
There is no excuse for this guy's reckless behaviour. From what I understand it's possible to achieve even the most profound of spiritual experiences, while still taking safety precautions. Several of the teachers I've known will actually ask about an individual's medical history, and in some cases will refuse to take someone on a course if they feel it would be unsafe for them.
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| This Reminds Me | Oct 22nd. at 5:22:13 am EDT
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Roy Linford Adams (Buxton, Maine) - Email Me
Of a Metalacalypse episode where Dethklok all get a summer cold and decide to cure it with junk they heard about. So here you have five guys who are sick, sitting in a sauna for a whole day, covered in leaches and letting out their blood into buckets. I laughed my rear off when they were talking and it sounded like a record slowing down to a crawl.
I totally see these people just as stupid.
I also pity the Native American community for the fact a sad little man on a power trip used and abused one of their most sacred ritual tools. Just watch, the reservations will be under public scrutiny now. I can already see Dateline doing an expose on then.
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| Both Sides | Oct 22nd. at 12:34:47 am EDT
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Nova (Hudson Falls, New York) - Email Me
This was a horrible and tragic inccedent but the man who urged everyone to stay in is not soley to blame. We all have to make our own choices and only we know our bodies limits, they should have gotten out while they could. so I belive that both sides are to blame
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| New Age Ignorants | Oct 21st. at 10:25:37 pm EDT
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foreverknightfan (Dardanelle, Arkansas) - Email Me
Bear in mind that most people wouldn't know squat about Native American beliefs, including the use of sweat lodges. Bear also in mind that these people seem to be of the " New Age" instant spirituality types who blindly follow some self-proclaimed "leader" who acts as if he/she knows the subject and is THE way.
IOW a cult leader or con artist.
The ignorance and naivete of these people is what this creep used to hook his suckers and control them enough to lead them to this sadistic death trap.
Anyone can fall for the follow the leader problem. For a number of Pagans who have a leader in their group they have followed for years only to find the leader turning dictatorial and drama queenish, and from what I've been hearing of such cases, very few have told the leader to get stuffed.
Makes me glad I've been a Solitary.
As to this creep, he should be charged with a few felonies.
And since when have any Native American claimed to BE God?
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| This Guy Should Go To Prison For A Long, Long Time | Oct 21st. at 8:10:29 pm EDT
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Medea (Somewhere, Massachusetts) - Email Me
He's a charlatan.
No ethical healer would conduct a so called ritual like this, and be so blithely unconcerned for the safety of the people who put their trust in him.
His egotism, blatant negligence, and GOADING, caused trusting folk to override their better judgement and stay in there.
This guy is no leader, he's a money grubbing, rip off scammer.
May the spirits of the Elders teach him the error of his ways for stealing the traditions of the people and using them irresponsibly. May they teach him well.
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| Stupid Should Be A Crime | Oct 21st. at 5:10:02 pm EDT
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Winddragon (anderson, South Carolina) - Email Me
No none was forced to stay and could have left at any time. They could have said F.U. but didn't. Does this count for Darwin Awards?
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