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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 20694
[Civil]
Date Posted:
5/26/2009
3:04:05 pm EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 4,097
RSS: 13,528
Comments: 19
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Couple: County Trying To Stop Home Bible Studies
Author: 10 News Source: 10 News (CA)
Title: COUPLE: COUNTY TRYING TO STOP HOME BIBLE STUDIES
A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines they continued to hold bible studies in their home, 10News reported.
Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law and Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.
Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"
The county employee notified the couple that the small bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of county regulations, according to Broyles.
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Community Thoughts: There are 19 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| More Information | May 29th. at 6:15:56 pm EDT
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Druweid (Springfield, Massachusetts) - Email Me
In an article written by Helen Gao and posted to "signonsandiego.com," under the headline "Home Study Dispute of Biblical Proportions," there is a copy of the original citation issued to David and Mary Jones.
Yes, it appears that the number of cars parked on that cul-de-sac is the major concern, and yes, it appears there has been more than one complaint, HOWEVER, the citation specifically says "Cease/stop religious assembly..."
I have to agree, with utmost enthusiasm, that this is the time to stand behind these people and offer whatever help we can give. I would strongly encourage other Pagans and Wiccans in San Diego County to write to their representatives. Religious discrimination in any and all its forms must not be tolerated, nor should it be endured in silence. And with all due respect to my brothers and sisters on this forum, this is not the time for tit-for-tat or "Shoe is on the other foot now."
Warmest regards
Find More info -- HERE
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| Let Them Have Their Group | May 29th. at 4:39:43 am EDT
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Moonlight Wolf (Bradford, England) - Email Me
After all we would probably be up in arms if a Pagan group was told they couldn't have meetings in their home we'd all be up in arms about it.
As for the excess of cars there are ways around it. They could try carpooling to the house, or taking alternative methods of transport such as cycling or walking. (within reasonable distance) If they are generating a lot of noise then the neighbours could ask them to keep the noise down, or they could meet at the house that has the most amount of land or greatest distance between neighbours to avoid this. There are ways of holding a Bible study group without annoying the cr*p out of your neighbours.
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| Parking And Shouting Are Probably At Fault | May 28th. at 12:07:19 pm EDT
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
I suspect that the parking issue is a major reason for the complaints - if you have 15-20 folks meeting 1 or 2 times a week you have many cars parked in the street around the residence - which neighbors will probably complain about eventually - an occasional party is one thing but a weekly meeting will get on peoples nerves.
Then there is the question about shouting halleluah and amen - the operative word here is "shouting" - I suspect the closer neighbors got tired of hearing all of the praise the lord shouting going on and complained.
If there are no complaints, there are no noticed code violations - nobody follows people with christian bumper stickers around to see if they meet their friends with bibles in their hands.
Somehow I don't think religious persecution is the actual issue here.
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| Wow | May 27th. at 7:57:11 pm EDT
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Gray Fox (Albuquerque, New Mexico) - Email Me
So I guess since it has happened to us it's ok for the fundies to have a taste? Pretty short sighted and small minded if you ask me. I too would like to see what complaints were called in. What is the real impact and all that.
But the fact of the matter is this: We should be standing behind these folks. We should tell them we feel their pain as many of us have been there. It matters not what the faith, it matters that their rights are being trampled. People of other faiths must unite to stop garbage like this. It pains me that many here think it's either funny or just or some kind of perverted payback. Wrong is wrong, folks.
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| BEEP BEEP! | May 27th. at 5:36:31 pm EDT
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Roy Linford Adams (Buxton, Maine) - Email Me
Yep, My B.S. meter is going off.
I personally know christians who like to add in extra details on mundane things to blow it up to claim descrimination.
Sounds to me like a complaint about too many cars and they added in the questioning by the cops. The cop was probably qurious and thinking of joining in and they used it. And you can bet your best dollar that it was them who called Fox News. After All, Fox panders to the evangelicals.
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| I'm Very Curious | May 27th. at 10:56:32 am EDT
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Ixacacau (Moore, Oklahoma) - Email Me
I'm very curious about why these people came to the attention of the authorities. In the town where I live, there usually has to be many vociferous complaints to get the local government involved. It could also turn out that there is some kind of personal grudge between someone in this group and a local official. I'm guessing that there's a lot more to this story than local officials just deciding, out of the blue, to harrass a small, inoffensive Bible study group.
I hope some more info comes up on this story. It could be interesting.
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| What I'd Be Interested In Knowing... | May 27th. at 9:54:57 am EDT
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Sea Raven (New Haven, Connecticut) - Email Me
... is how many cars are we REALLY talking about and how often does the group REALLY meet. If it's "only" 15 - 20 people (hopefully carpooling so that there aren't many cars parking along the road) and "only" once a week, then the county can go hang. The couple has every right to have friends to their home without interference from the county.
However, there's also the question of how many complaints the police and/or county have received regarding this couple's Bible study group. If there have been numerous complaints about residents not being able to park or noise or other legitimate concerns, then the police and/or are obligated to step in. The couple's first amendment rights do not trump their neighbors' rights to park on their street or enjoy some peace in their own neighborhood.
That being said, this sounds to me like a case of "he said, she said" amongst neighbors.
I'm including a link to a related article on WorldNutDaily's website.
Find More info -- HERE
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| Opportunity | May 27th. at 7:10:25 am EDT
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White Pine (Paw Paw, West Virginia) - Email Me
Here is a chance for the pagan community of San Diego to rally around this pastor. Help with their defense fund, offer support at any town meetings etc. In other words show that pagans support religious freedom, regardless of the religion.
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| Uhhh...Hold On A Minute | May 27th. at 12:59:58 am EDT
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nasionnaich (Stanchfield, Minnesota) - Email Me
First, I happen to agree that 15-20 people a major parking problem does not (usually) make. That "Bible-study group" is finding out what Pagan groups across the U.S. all have to deal with.
On the other hand, most - if not all - Pagan groups call themselves "churches" (the definition of a religious gathering, regardless of the actual religion) . Those "churches" usually have 15-20 people who regularly attend "services"...the size of that Bible-study group. Just what am I getting at? Look in the article:
" 'For churches and religious assemblies there's big parking concerns, there's environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this bible study is certainly misplaced,' said Broyles."
The County's argument is that the Bible-study meetings actually constitute a "Church or Religious Assembly". The attorney seems to be arguing that "churches and religious assemblies" MUST consist of hundreds or thousands of people attending services. Now, where are the Pagan "church" buildings large enough to hold hundreds or thousands of people in one toss -- and how many Pagan "religious assemblies" actually have that many people attending?
Yeah, there's the problem, right there. The Bible-study group isn't a "church", it isn't even a "religious assembly" -- and neither are the Pagan religious groups who "just happen" to meet in private homes. If the County wins, Pagans will have to apply for all those expensive permits -- and if the County loses, Pagans will still have to apply for all those expensive permits...unless Pagans choose to stop calling their religious gathering places "churches". Think about how the decision on this case is REALLY going to affect YOUR religious gatherings.
--nasionnaich
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| Illegal Under RLUIPA | May 26th. at 8:47:50 pm EDT
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A.C. Fisher Aldag (Bangor, Michigan) - Email Me
I just wrote a note on the comments page of the original article. This same thing happened to us, a Pagan group holding gatherings in Michigan. Our township tried to shut us down. We contacted the ACLU and won under the Religious Land Use and Incarcerated Persons Act. I urge the pastor and congregation of this church in San Diego to do the same. This action violates their constitutional right to freedom of assembly and free exercise of religion. Hope they fight it and WIN. Blessings!
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| IF... | May 26th. at 8:37:16 pm EDT
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Corax (Glendale, Arizona) - Email Me
we're REALLY talking about only 15-20 people, the county's complaint does seem pretty thin, but, in all fairness, this is EXACTLY what has been happening to Pagans ever since the beginning of the xian era. I have NO sympathy for these buybull beaters, because they would do the same thing to US in an instant, given the chance!
How does it feel, fundys?
Maybe, just maybe, the next time something like this arises which involves Pagans, you might just consider that it COULD have been YOU. Consider the saying of the ACLU: "When one person's rights are violated, EVERYONE'S rights are violated!"
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| Here, You're Talking About Basic Human Rights | May 26th. at 8:25:47 pm EDT
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Aidan Odinson (Collingdale, Pennsylvania) - Email Me - Web
As others have pointed out, I am certain that there would have been no problem if this were a weekly gathering of similar size to watch a game on someone's big-screen TV, or to play poker.
The implications are horrendous. Especially considering that covens are generally about the same size as this pastor's home-prayer group. And indeed, small group meetings like those are gaining in popularity among Christian churches. They tend to foster "connectedness" and a greater feeling of belonging as opposed to being part of a crowd one morning a week.
In this case, we're on the same side with them. Their side is our side.
Besides, the best way to receive respect is by giving it.
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| That... | May 26th. at 8:08:34 pm EDT
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RavenLight (Arlington, Virginia) - Email Me
...is so wrong. I hope that some legal decision can be made in favor of that Pastor.
He has my full support.
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| Parking | May 26th. at 7:12:54 pm EDT
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Ahr-Ohn (Bridgeport, Connecticut) - Email Me
The Zebra Club in Norwalk had the same problem, when they were across the street from a Roman Catholic Church. The Church was dumb enough, to complain about the morality of the club, when they really just needed their parking for Wednesday Evening Services. The Zebra Club subsequently relocated next to Dominoes, where parking was needed on a close and rapid basis, and there were no more complaints of Morality.
At what point, should a cottage industry be regulated by traffic and zoning? Many of the arguments here, would apply also to someone trying to run a ladys'boarding school, on one bathroom.
Arawn
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| It's About Rights..... | May 26th. at 6:52:25 pm EDT
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
This does indeed open the proverbial can of worms. Freedom of assembly is supposed to be a basic right, and it shouldn't matter how often a group meets-or why. The afternoon party barbeque in the back yard is as much an assembly as is a church group having a private bible study. That means that unless a kid has a permit, they can't even have a sleep-over, a birthday party or backyard camping as those are assemblies too. I hope the pastor wins in this case, because it's about rights.
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