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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 21058
[Religious]
Date Posted:
8/17/2009
6:00:04 pm EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 8,542
RSS: 22,237
Comments: 17
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Viking Religious Group Causes Stir At Park
Author: ABC Source: Turn to 23
Title: VIKING RELIGIOUS GROUP CAUSES STIR AT PARK
A recent incident created a dispute over practicing religion in a public place in California.
The incident happened at Standard Park, when neighbors saw a group of pagans practicing a harvest ritual, KSBW-TV reported.
The men at the park said they practice Odinism, a Viking Earth-based religion.
The group known as the Ravens Folk Kindred formerly held their pagan rituals at Willows Park.
Collin Bentley, an Odinist, said, “Our arms are raised (in the air). So it's easy to see how a bunch of white guys, in a park, with tattoos, could be mistaken."
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Community Thoughts: There are 17 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Parks & Taxes | Aug 20th. at 2:03:23 pm EDT
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Finn (San Marcos, Texas) - Email Me
I want to address something. Our "taxes" pay for pretty much everything. There isn't any part of our government or publically owned property that is paid for in any other way. That makes the whole taxes argument moot. Just because my taxes helped pay for the highway system doesn't mean I get to hold block parties on it. I hope can understand the context of that comment.
There are beautiful parks in my hometown. I have to get a permit (and pay a fee) just to have a damn picnic in them. If I have to pay to squat and eat a hot dog, those wanting to have a revival meeting there have to get one too. Fair is fair. More to the point, parks are not areas where you get to do anything you want. They have specific purposes. Private religious rituals isn't really one of them.
I would be very angry if all my local Christian Churches decided that they could cut their overhead by holding services in the park on the taxpayer's dime. I feel the same way about my peers under the pagan umbrella. Parks are for kids to play, lovers to walk, runners to run, picnics, and walking barefoot in green grass. They are "recreation" areas.
It seems to me that any Coven or organization boasting enough numbers to freak out the local police probably can martial the funds required to get themselves to some private property. If a park or National Park is the only thing that fits the bill, I'm sure polite types can manage to use the facilities without ever being noticed. People who get noticed tend to want to be noticed. I've said that before too. It means they aren't in the park about their ritual, but about making a statement. The other people in the park (who did not come for services) become an unwilling audience.
Long story short, it is rude.
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| Police Protection | Aug 20th. at 1:42:48 pm EDT
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Frater Infinity (Santa Barbara, California) - Email Me
Public lands are paid for by tax payors. If you pay taxes, then you have as good a right as any to do. But, if the law is broken, why should you be allowed?
Most of the time the law enforcement will kindly let you know what is wrong, let you fix it, and then drive off to a vantage point and enjoy the show.
Regards
Infinity
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| Hmm | Aug 19th. at 12:41:10 pm EDT
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Dynnys Derwydd (Lubbock, Texas) - Email Me
Well, there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding. Some of the largest Asatruar groups only take people of Germanic/Nordic ethnicity, though there are few who don't care as long as the Asa gods are calling you.
This could be seen as racialism, not racism, as they have an inherent belief that the gods have geographical preferences. I.e., those of African descent have their own rich religious heritage to draw from, so why choose to worship European gods? They also feel the same way about people of Celtic, Italian, Greek and other heritages. This isn't racism, it is recognition and honor of heritage and ethnicity. And most Asatruar I've met would never think of judging someone based upon skin color.
As for Odinism, sadly there are some racists out there who've co-opted that word for their own debased use, though there are many more good people without a prejudice bone in their bodies who use it as well. Just think of how the Nazi's suborned the swastika and the Roman "ave" salute, and how these very symbols are intricately tied to Social Nationalism forever more.
As for worship in public parks, well there are quite a few heathens and pagans who would not have access to any type of woodlands if it weren't for local, state and federal parks. Sheesh, here on the South Plains it's about all we have. Last years PPD was held in a McKenzie State Park here in the city limits. Now I have no problem with fees or permits, so long as they are given out on an EQUAL basis to interested parties.
Gnothi Seauton
honi soit qui mal y pense,
Dynnys Derwydd
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| Read The Site... | Aug 19th. at 10:05:40 am EDT
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RavenLight (Arlington, Virginia) - Email Me
...on the one hand, they are not 'white supremists' (They also can't spell 'eclectic' and seem to have issues adding plurals and 's) . On the other, they only take people of Germanic descent.
While I do get the difference between Vulkish and Racist...I'm getting vibes here.
Seems I'm not eligible anyway (bisexual) , but if I wasn't, I wonder what they would make of me...lots of Norse blood in here, but also 1/4 Jewish.
I suppose they'd call me a mongrel. Know what?
I am.
And I'm proud of it.
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| Public Parks | Aug 18th. at 1:04:30 pm EDT
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Finn (San Marcos, Texas) - Email Me
Public Parks are not the place private rituals. I see no problem with permits being required. I've seen parks require them of Christians (all stripes) and I've seen them required of other faiths too. I personally would rather my so-called peers conduct themselves in polite privacy.
I have found, in my experience, that Wiccans, heathens, and pagans who hold their rituals in public places are doing so for the same reasons some Christians do so. They want to be seen. They want to be heard. It has nothing to do with nature or the facilities. It is annoying when Christians do it. It is annoying when my peers do it.
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| Permits..... | Aug 18th. at 12:58:53 pm EDT
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Thorin (Newaygo, Michigan) - Email Me
In the future, I would suggest they get a permit to use the park. That way, if anyone comes up to them.....there ya go.....we have permission from "Such & such a group" to use it. End of story.
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| Okay... | Aug 18th. at 11:37:55 am EDT
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Michael Thornton (Mesa, Arizona) - Email Me
Understanding is a two way street. The ranger who told them to leave might well have been acting in what he believed to be the public interest. I've read the group's website and mission, and frankly, if I was not a pagan, and privy to all the stuff pagans/heathens/whatever us lot want to call ourselves, do to kneecap themselves PR-wise, I'd say they looked like a white supremacist group, too. They don't allow those of non-Germanic or related origins to join, nor homosexuals, they require members to denounce "desert-based religions," and one of their webpages has a background featuring a scene from the American Civil War of Confederate Soldiers bearing the confederate flag.
I understand the exclusionary practices -- A lot of it has to do with reclaiming cultural heritage and pride. I understand _renouncing_ ties/membership in other religions -- having someone join in your religion is a significant step and you want them to be fully committed. The confederate thing? Not so much, but maybe there's a reason behind it that I just don't see.
But then, I've seen what goes on inside of paganism.
The park ranger who is painted as a villain? Maybe he wasn't inclined to keep an open mind when there were people in the park he was set to _protect_ conducting strange rituals with imagery and iconography that conjured images of racial intolerance and persecution, and frightening people on his watch.
Find More info -- HERE
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| Honestly... | Aug 18th. at 10:53:33 am EDT
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RavenLight (Arlington, Virginia) - Email Me
I'll probably be unpopular for saying this.
But it's better to get a permit, even if they're not technically *required* for religious activity. That way local law enforcement know you are there, know what you are doing and know you are not Satanists or white supremacists or anything else we might at times be mistaken for.
Yes, it's unfair. But in the long term, being very, very open about who we are and what we are doing is how we educate people so they can tell the difference between a pentACLE and a pentAGRAM.
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| Tactical Options | Aug 18th. at 10:25:44 am EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
It's clear in this case that there was some mid manager who doesn't belong armed and handed law enforcement powers by taxpayers. It's not apparent that there was any organizational bias beyond one corrupt mob boss (and all cops amount to little more than criminal mobs when group prejudices, bad managers, or political evil overlords direct illegal actions, as the bigotry driven actions in this case's second visit clearly were) .
Denial of equal access would almost certainly be a Federal RLUIPA violation. Group use permit regulations, that weren't stated as an issue in this case, can get messy and need review as to justification and de facto impact when they're used to restrict protected criteria small assemblies. There might also be state hate crimes laws requiring careful technical reading to evaluate, and however unlikely a state prosecutor would be to enforce them against government violators, could be worth filing a criminal complaint against the ranger who directed the return visit if his actions meet the letter of a criminal violation.
It would probably be worth requesting a copy of the incident report (s) from this case, as the next step in sending a subtle message that the violations of civil rights and Federal law are being pursued, and to enable making a more focused complaint against the specific ranger involved. If that ranger's identity isn't known or in those reports, FOIA use might be needed. It might also be worth investigating ACLU help, by identifying which of California's three state ACLU chapters covers that area, and how available its Executive Director thinks they might be to assist if there are any further incidents.
The benefit of filing a specific formal complaint, preferably after collection of any official documentation (that might be evidence of filing a false report by police, or reveal other biases beyond the apparent) , is that there's clearly a need for employee disciplinary action and a black mark in a personnel file. A casual phone call might result in an informal warning to be more careful violating the law next time, whereas a formal complaint could be strike one in possible termination of employment, rather than leave a clean slate on paper, or could push mandatory retraining in legal compliance as to cultural and religious sensitivity courses.
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| I Agree | Aug 18th. at 3:04:30 am EDT
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R. Cicero (Seattle, Washington) - Email Me
Equal access for one and all, or else. Try to sue if you must, if you think it will help. Still, underlying all this is a strange predicament: the concept of 'Public Lands.' That must really chap the ass of your average Native American, considering it was purchased via genocide. The tribes respected the earth so much, they didn't think to fence it all in (except when they came into conflict with other tribes, and did their own torturing and killing and hoarding) . There's just been a lot of blood let over those properties, period. Cattle ranchers killing sheep ranchers and vice versa, and all their stock over grazing rights. Their private ranches of several thousand acres were just never big enough. Then there's eminent domain, and of course you never really know what percentage of your tax dollars are purchasing 'public' property, as opposed to military spending (torture dungeons, perhaps) or corporate gifting, etc. And then endless restrictions every where you look. And fees! Of course most humans act like pigs in our national parks or out in the wild. Hardly matters how polite you are when others rip it up with their ATV's and leave garbage behind or shoot at anything that moves. Let's face it, humans are horrible stewards of the earth. Meanwhile, pagans want their cut of the wilderness too, while animals must just want to get the hell out of dodge with everyone creeping into their backyard all the time, including those that respect them. These lands are really not public OR private, are they? They will always feel like the government's, and they ultimately decree who does what where, and which animals live or die. And all that can change drastically every 4 years, when new corporate overlords arrive. So yes, I suppose there's a case to be made, maybe even a suit to be filed. It's not like someone isn't being screwed or marginalized, while others are thriving. Meanwhile, WA state is getting ready to shut down 39 more 'public' parks. They're having trouble collecting adequate taxes, you see.
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| ... | Aug 18th. at 12:17:47 am EDT
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Draken (Bronx, New York) - Email Me - Web
File that suit.
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| I Disagree | Aug 17th. at 10:58:35 pm EDT
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the Fluid Druid (Hot Springs, Arkansas) - Email Me - Web
I myself worship on Public Lands, a National Park among other places.
Yes, if I wanted to do things half @$$ed I could do them in my apartment, however my ancestors taught me to go to the mountains and wild places to speak with the spirits.
Since the ONLY available place I can get to is part of a national park, I walk up the mountian and the rangers just pass me off as one of the local eccentrics.
I guess there not far off of the map. But then my ceremonies are a bit more subtle than what was mentioned, and usually done alone or in a very small group.
I have no problem with people worshiping on public lands as long as equal access is given.
the Fluid Druid
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| Problematic | Aug 17th. at 10:14:38 pm EDT
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R. Cicero (Seattle, Washington) - Email Me
If there are laws protecting such activity, they should not balk at filing a civil suit. But I still don't like what they did, no matter who's putting on the garb and chanting. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if park rangers tended to overlook Baptist potlucks with public prayers, while cracking down on anything else outside what the average small brain considers 'mainstream.' Let's face it, life is unfair and corruption is everywhere. And yet, even if others get away with sh*t, I simply can't support those that want to take their religion into a public park. If they restrict dogs, fireworks, alcohol, and crack down on nudists, motorcycles and excessive noise, why should we give extroverted, obnoxious religious types a blank check? Because it's definitely something that can be done in the privacy of their homes, their backyards, or in a tax-free temple.
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| Bakersfield? That Explains Everything! | Aug 17th. at 9:51:13 pm EDT
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Dana Corby (Anderson Island, Washington) - Email Me
OK, This happened in Bakersfield, CA. The SAME Bakersfield where, just a few years ago, a Deputy led a group from his flat-head church in breaking up a Pagan gathering outside a newly-opened occult shop and where the Sherriff (the Deputy's father in law -- can we say 'nepotism?') refused to take the Pagans' complaints seriously.
No wonder I know so many Pagans from -- far from -- Bakersfield.
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| The Problem Is... | Aug 17th. at 7:49:36 pm EDT
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Randgríðr (Glen Cove, New York) - Email Me
Many of the people who refer to themselves as Odinists (as opposed to Asatruar, Heathen, Theodish or any other variant of the Germanic/Scandinavian religion) ARE white supremacists. They continue Hitler's misuse of the swastika, the runes and other sacred symbols. They love to flaunt the swastika in people's faces and then hide behind the pretense of the faith to justify their use of it.
As a non racist practitioner of Asatru I find this to be a travesty. The loudmouthed racist clowns are about as truly dedicated to this faith as the KKK are practicing Christians. In other words... not.
So while I object to police harassment while practicing freedom of religion, were I in this situation I would encourage law enforcement auhorities to make sure that the individuals in question were not representing a thinly veiled hate group before leaving them to their ritual. The swastika IS one of our holy symbols, but it will be many years before the wounds inflicted by the Third Reich heal and we can use that symbol with impunity. Flaunting it in people's faces and pretending to be doing so for religious purposes is the ultimate in insensitivity, cruelty and stupidity. Idiots who do this give our faith a bad name and I have NO PROBLEM with law enforcement looking over their shoulders.
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