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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 21231
[Religious]
Date Posted:
10/8/2009
10:11:39 am EDT
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Views: 3,452
RSS: 12,978
Comments: 22
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Opinion: Religion Requires Moral Absolutes
Author: Larry Moore, Letter to the Editor Source: Augusta Chronicle (GA)
Title: RELIGION REQUIRES MORAL ABSOLUTES
he Augusta Chronicle's Oct. 3 Faith section article on the Wiccan belief system ("Proud to be pagans") merely revealed what many postmodern religions are made of, and compels a response.
Wiccans seem to espouse a "what's right for you" mind-set. Isn't this an extension of relativism and existentialism? Man is the measure of all things? Whatever you believe? Don't worry as long as you don't hurt anyone else or yourself in the process? Is this nothing more than a desire to assert the importance of man's individuality and freedom and with it, a denial of accountability to a Creator?
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Community Thoughts: There are 22 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| His Own Religion Fails His Test | Oct 11th. at 7:30:23 am EDT
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arinna (Kill Devil Hills, North Carolina) - Email Me
If the author truly believes in moral absolutism, he should run from Christianity. If you actually read the entire bible you will find passages that demand 'though shalt not kill' and also passages commanding God's followers to kill every man women and child. There are other examples but this one alone proves this authors own God is a moral relativist who changes the rules according to the specific circumstances.
At least when we emply moral relativism, the goal remains constant... harm no one.
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| Fear | Oct 11th. at 12:44:06 am EDT
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Blue Stag (New York, New York) - Email Me
"How can one live a consistent life if the target of what's right and wrong is always moving? Could you imagine a football game without sidelines? Without rules? How confusing."
Apparently, life is supposed to be straightforward, with all aspects rigidly defined, at all times. At least according to this person.
What fundamentalists fear most is gray areas, because gray areas require independent thinking on the part of the individual. It's much easier to have your morality handed to you than to have to think about it for yourself.
He also states that the only law that makes sense is the law of non-contradiction. That's funny, coming from someone who gets his morality from the Bible, which is one of the most self-contradictory (not to mention at times morally reprehensible) books ever written.
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| Most "absolutes" Are Relative | Oct 10th. at 11:52:43 am EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
Anyone who doesn't get it as to why and how most standards are relative to many stipulated definitions and relational perspectives really isn't aware and functionally literate enough to be considered an adult in any diverse, tech and economics system oriented complex society.
One of the major challenges in our system of law is in how to draw clear and precise lines over issues whose very nature doesn't fit legal standards that people are entitled to be able to determine up front what is legal or not, and that any laws where that isn't possible are void for vagueness. The Supreme Court case defining the religious construct of "indecency" as if neutral law goes beyond that, and is a prime example of how to torture legal constructs to maliciously circumvent limits on prejudiced legal standards. That court case started with a Pacifica radio outlet asking the FCC if the holiday special airing of a transcription of an Ed Albee play would be legal or not. The FCC answered that it couldn't say, as if they said it wasn't and were wrong, that would be illegal prior restraint of protected speech content. If they said it was and received complaints, they weren't allowed to tie their own hands to a position of obligation to reject complaints.
That led to the infamous live sociology commentary comic recording by George Carlin, that erred in claiming there were any specific banned words in a particular list. A New York Pacifica outlet aired that Carlin recording a few years later, leading the Supreme Court to perpetrate a fraud and pretend that some ambiguous and impossible to clearly identity words harmed minors. They skipped the step that any such harm was relative, and a result of a conflict between common child rearing and social practices some people view as if universal norms, and others of us recognize as institutionalized bigotry and fundamentally illegal for any government subject to modern civil or human rights standards to select or favor.
The author of this article's comment is saying something akin to Richard Nixon declaring, "I am not a (now turned psychotic) crook!"
In effect, this author is saying he lacks the life awareness and functional skills to exist and function as a mature adult in our society. He's saying in effect also that he cannot be a serious Christian, because it's inherently dishonest to deny the foundational premises most of what he demands as if absolute standards are relational to. In most cases, religions that adopt absolute standards are designed to help certain people in a narrow social and historic context, and to die off or change if transplanted in time or place.
It's a far tougher challenge to live life with one's eyes wide open, and demonstrate personal responsibility for one's actions relative to a complex set of life circumstances. Not everyone handles that well, but being aware and demonstrating those skills, PLUS knowledge and understanding to supervise government officials representing us, might well be the needed skills and maturity to be treated as a legal adult, to vote, be a juror, choose to burden Gaia with kids, or to parent without an attitude likely to result in child abuse as this author seems to promote.
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| The Beam In Your Own Eye | Oct 10th. at 11:14:11 am EDT
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Joy (Largo, Florida) - Email Me
The Ten Commandments are disturbingly silent on the matter of child abuse, among many other things that we know are wrong because they are harmful. The Biblical god doesn't seem to have thought things through very well.
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| I'll Take The Softball... | Oct 9th. at 4:10:07 pm EDT
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TheStormofWar (Salt Lake City, Utah) - Email Me
"I do not pretend to force my beliefs on another, but would ask one to consider the great questions of life -- questions of origin, of meaning, of morality and of destiny. It is not sufficient to answer one without consideration of all. Only Christianity answers individually with a cohesive bond to all."
Tell you what, ask the various sects of Christianity, or various branches within said sect, about homosexuality, relations to other religions, or even divorce, and get back to me on that one, Mr. Evans.
Unfortunatley, it's not that simple now. There is no such thing as moral absolutes. Ever. One person's criminal is another person's hero.
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| OUCH..... | Oct 9th. at 3:32:40 pm EDT
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witch jenny (College Station, Texas) - Email Me
Wow, want to give yourself a headache - trying reading the comments left on the article itself - the article that spawned the letter to the editor, I mean.
It leads me to the conclusion that the most we can hope for in the way of tolerance from christians is hearing that we are going to hell for our foolish ways. This is the precise reason I stay in the broom closet most of the time. I think I would be more willing to put myself out there but I have a child and I worry for her safety.
Peace to all
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| Absolutism = Refuge Of The Fanatic | Oct 9th. at 1:10:34 pm EDT
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Sphinxring (Olympia, Washington) - Email Me
Taliban, Right wing religious Christian nuts, Kill for Kali, or whatever use the old absolute truth fishing ruler to measure reality against doctrine and religious law.
God says I'm right, anyone who disagrees, dies! A lot of people get killed in the process.
Easy to try to avoid until there's blood on the pavement.
And killing fanatics makes martyrs... Hmmm? Maybe, just maybe we have a mental problem here? And guns don't generally help with mental problems.
Unless you count acting out atrocity fantasies as catharthis? Uh no.
Kind humor and economic involvement generally defuse those who can be defused.
Time alone unbinds the "true believer". That's a generation scale issue.
Afghan Hip-Hop???
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| Keeping An Eye On The Prize (Equality) | Oct 9th. at 10:27:19 am EDT
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karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin) - Email Me - Web
The bugaboo of relativism is a tool of abuse, inequality, religionism.
Some degree of honest humility is recommended. Any (any!) system of ethics or meta-ethical system requires a lot of discussion and a lot of excellent discussion that doesn't loose sight of functional equality, functional virtues. [Web LINK]
The terms absolutes, absolutism, and relativism are not commonly differentiated or discussed with sufficient clarity.
I like the absolutes that lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering are wrong, for example, but hold them in balance with preserving my safety and life. Should imperatives collide, survival will win in most cases. Taking someone's life is wrong but it can be done in the case of self defense, for example.
Thankfully, extreme situations like that don't arise every day. But I give room for them. I'd have no qualms defending myself or my family.
Here's the kicker. One could say it's an absolute that even absolutes have their exceptions...but they should be carefully navigated.
Here's another important part.
The story of virtues, morals, ethics, and values don't end at the level of "staying legal." Equality, progress, and peace demand people to go above and beyond Lowest Common Denominator type of rules in a multi-disciplined manner involving things relative.
This gets into who we are, judging by our behavioral patterns and their impact, import.
This way I wouldn't say shades of gray rule, I wouldn't say dull black and white thinking rules either, and the **reciprocal natures of love thy neighbor and equality** are things that can be supported. There is structure.
Now to differentiate...
Moral absolutism (dogma alert!) as a religious meta-ethical worldview that doesn't provide for contexts and that views absolutes as commands from deity that tend to be based on legalism, well, that seems to lead followers tend to shove their brand of meta-ethics down everyone's throats in constant shows of egoism and power only to become extremely unethical...and I don't buy into the rationalizations.
It's as if they don't have those more excellent discussions about virtues, morals, ethics, and values in a multi-disclined manner, then they fall into relativism all the more, rationalizing and justifying things in the name of their God and religion all the more. While they may rail against relativism. Heh.
That's **religionism** and it frequently sells short the importance "be most excellent to each other..." (Bill and Ted were right, lol) . It sells short equality. It seeks domination, abusive power and control.
So, I wouldn't be afraid of some absolutes, but it depends on what contexts they're taught in, ha ha, multi-disciplined ones or ones taught in a climate of religionism.
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| Only A Sith Deals In Absolutes. | Oct 9th. at 9:32:42 am EDT
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Laura C. (Weston, Florida) - Email Me
Apparently "don't harm people unless they're directly threatening you" isn't hard-core enough for this idiot.
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| Absolutism Is . . . | Oct 9th. at 9:23:28 am EDT
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Ananta Androscoggin (Greene, Maine) - Email Me
Absolutism is the creed of the tyrant and the mass murderer.
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| Why? | Oct 9th. at 4:36:22 am EDT
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Ailm (Clayton\Seymour, Victoria) - Email Me
Why do people insist that there is an absolute right or wrong? Life is rarely purely black and white - we live in a world with many shades of grey and insisting on living by an absolute moral code will surely go insane when they encounter something that doesn't fit into their rigid neat little boxes. Has he never heard of moral relativism? People like this are usually the smug irritating people who think they're better than everyone else because they're privy to the secret of what is universally right or wrong. People like this also have the tendency to want to 'share' their brilliant wisdom among us poor fools living in 'ignorance'... whether they like it or not.
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| Harm None | Oct 8th. at 8:54:38 pm EDT
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
The author quotes that as being part of the "pagan" religions. What he seems to miss is that, unlike christianity, which allows you to be "forgiven" for anything you do if you accept their jesus as your savior, the pagan faiths put the responsibility for your behavior on YOU - with no opt out option available.
If I take my "relativistic" faith off to wall street and swindle millions of people - I will expect to pay for my misdeeds - either through karma or by spending time in jail - which may well be the working of karma. If I am a christian, I expect to be totally forgiven as long as I don't get caught here on earth.
Who has the more strict standard of values? Hummmm?
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| Bugaboo Be Gone! | Oct 8th. at 8:14:42 pm EDT
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karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin) - Email Me - Web
Bah to portraying Wicca as a religion of individualism a la some sort of perverse Apollian vs. Dionysian false dilemma.
Wiccans and other Pagans can, as part of the fabric of society, approach functional virtues, morals, values, and ethics in a multi-disciplined manner rather than through religionism...and the better discussions on Wiccan and other Pagan values reflect that.
Toward the autistic part of neurodiversity and as a domestic abuse survivor, I function best with a sound structure that has a great deal of clarity and purpose.
It's for this reason that I worked to develop a robust model of admirable human beings and socially just society. [Web LINK] [Web LINK] [Web LINK]
I didn't wait for anyone to hand it to me on a silver plater. Heh. I gained what I did from studying various religions and other systems and went above and beyond. Because that's what a multi-disciplined approach does.
I practice orthopraxy (correct practice, including but not limited to ethics, virtues, logic, hospitality and equality) . I've studied morals, logic, values, ethics, and functional virtues in different contexts/cultures/religions and appreciate a balance, not an either / or false dilemma, between absolute rights and wrongs & attention to the particular facts, factors, and so on.
Let's just say it takes work to shift paradigms. I did it for myself and my children and their children.
So even an eclectic Wiccan can, without eclipsing the primacy of morals, virtues, and ethics, be quite capable of navigating emotional, intellectual, political, sexual, religious/spiritual, and other landscapes as well as internal dialog.
I don't view humans as the measure of all either.
As for correcting or criticizing the author of the opinion piece in question, it's not prejudiced/intolerant to point out purposeful ignorance and how it's antagonistic to the reciprocal nature of "Love they Neighbor."
I'm tired of some elements in monotheism using relativism as a bugaboo, as if you don't have the only one and true God then you can't have a moral compass.
As an eclectic Wiccan and Druid, my views and focus on Deity and the Divine have changed over the years but it's my focus on functional virtues, morals and ethics that have deepened.
Lacking a moral compass, my foot!
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| Larry Even Got His Analogy Wrong | Oct 8th. at 7:19:09 pm EDT
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Arie Willow (Sydney, New South Wales) - Email Me
Nature abhorse a vacuum is a cry from the 19th century, which worked until we realized that most of the universe seems to be a vacuum. (it would appear that nature has no problem with vacuum whatsoever. And that is only the start of the problems in this article which dosn't seem to realise that social norms and rules shift constantly and inevitably and will continue to do so no matter how much some people try to set them in stone.
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| Obective Vs. Subjective Truth | Oct 8th. at 4:51:19 pm EDT
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Avagdu (Independence, Missouri) - Email Me
One of the issues discussed here is OBJECTIVE vs. SUBJECTIVE truth.
Objective simply means that it exists without one having to believe in it. Example, we have day and night because of the rotation of the Earth.
Subjective means that something is believed in and as of such, exists or possibly exists because we have faith in it or believe it to be so.
This is a commonly misunderstood process. As an example, one of the responses given was that they believed in the ‘objective’ revealed truth of the Bible. In this case, it, the Bible, isn’t truth because of its very existence, it is ‘believed’ to be truth because there are those who do. This is a big difference.
Also, whatever our religion, the beliefs will color our perceptions of it as well as other things. Wrong or right, it simply is. In Mr. Moore’s case, it’s rather obvious.
In Christianity, most everything is defined and believers are to follow precisely what is given it they are to be ‘saved’, so the concept that another religion doesn’t follow their perceived understanding, doesn’t mesh.
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