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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 19749
[Pagan]
Date Posted:
6/11/2008
6:57:49 pm EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 7,168
RSS: 11,834
Comments: 31
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Pagan Symbols On Fence Must Go, City Insists
Author: Melissa Walker Source: Des Moines Register (IA)
Title: PAGAN SYMBOLS ON FENCE MUST GO, CITY INSISTS
Robert Frost once said "good fences make good neighbors."
Apparently not when the fence is used to express religious beliefs.
A Des Moines couple say city officials have attacked their pagan religion and their civil rights after a complaint from a neighbor led to a notice to remove symbols that had been painted on the fence. Officials said the symbols are graffiti and must be removed.
"Those are religious symbols; they're not mean or obnoxious in any way," said Ryle MacPebbles who lives in the 2000 block of Southeast Sixth Street. "I just don't like them telling me my religion isn't anything.
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Community Thoughts: There are 31 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Definitely With The City On This One. | Jun 14th. at 3:41:10 am EDT
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Jeff Kincaid (Lynchburg, Virginia) - Email Me
Besides, I saw no "Celtic" emblems as the article described. I saw what looked like a Goddess symbol, though it was so badly drawn it could have been anything. Then I saw a rune, not so Celtic there. And of course the Pentacle. Not Celtic. Still looking for the Celtic Religious emblems... any one? anyone? Bueller....Bueller...
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| I Side With The City On This | Jun 13th. at 4:06:11 pm EDT
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ofssacerdos (Arvada, Colorado) - Email Me
Look at the pics accompanying the story. IMHO, it does look like white trash graffiti. I don't care if it's religious or not. If a Christian put a cross on the fence with spray paint, I'm sure the city would have removed it, too. I don't think his religious "freedoms" are being violated. What about his neighbor's rights to keep their property values up?
Maybe if he used more common sense regarding his religious freedoms the rest of us wouldn't have to fight so hard to be taken seriously. There's a fine line between discrimination and being ridiculous.
Personally I wouldn't be drawing sigils or symbols on my fence with spray paint. It's tacky and as a home owner, I would be concerned about it lowering neighborhood property values which is likely why his neighbors complained. Common sense...
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| Badly Worded Ordinance | Jun 13th. at 3:00:15 pm EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
I don't think the section of this guy's face bearing some distorted tattoos is "intended as such" either, but it's clearly his right to place such marks on his skin. In terms of law, one of the more likely distinctions of whether a surface is "intended" to bear signage or speech is its owner's intent, not that of onlookers whose tastes might be different. Clearly, this fence owner intended his fence to bear the runes and Pentacle he painted there, and so it's not a graffiti wall as defined by walls, fences, or other spaces marked by unauthorized third parties. Without reaching a determination on whether strict scrutiny versus rational basis legal tests apply because of the speech content in this case, this is clearly not graffiti based on the statutory definition cited. Any sloppy legal construction must be interpreted against the government, and in this homeowner's favor. The fence is intended by its owner to bear those marks he placed there.
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| Chip Of The Shoulder | Jun 13th. at 12:46:14 pm EDT
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Mars (brooklyn, New York) - Email Me
this sort of thing might be handled, in a consistent manner, by signage regulation, which of course applies to all, but the fact that this is expression, and not advertising, makes it difficult to police.
i think when someone does something like this, he's picking a fight, esp. when it's done so sloppily so as to look like defacement by wanna-be-satanic vandals. he's basically daring somebody to come along and say take that down for this reason or that reason (e.g., i'm selling my house and this is gonna make it a lot harder) , so he can respond 'make me'. "Go ahead, cross that line, knock that chip off my shoulder-- I dare you".
I guess there's no law against daring people to knock a chip off your shoulder.
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| Very Difficult. | Jun 13th. at 7:40:05 am EDT
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Sephiroth Storm (Tallahassee, North Carolina) - Email Me
Wikipedia defines Graffiti as images or lettering scratched, scrawled, painted or marked in any manner on property. It IS graffiti, however I would not make him remove them as they are religious symbols. Then again, I may be biased because I may not be so tollerant if they were satanic symbols. In this case, I believe the city is simply doing it's job.
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| Why Does Anybody Care Anyways | Jun 12th. at 7:13:43 pm EDT
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Ander s. Drake (hays, Kansas) - Email Me
It may look bad but it is their fence. It doesn't matter if it's consider giraffe only if it;s vandalism. If it's their fence then, i don't see why it would be it would be vandalism. Can a person vandalize there own house or fence. Very few people would complain if it wasn't for the fact that the symbols are pagan.
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| They Look Horrible ... | Jun 12th. at 5:15:10 pm EDT
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Cheryl Grant (Oakville, Ontario) - Email Me
and I have to agree ... they look like graffiti.
If it had been a stencil of pentacles twined with ivy or runes or something artistic along the top, I would say "hey ... artistic license". But spray painting some symbols in such a manner is passive aggressive behaviour and was meant to insult.
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| Tough Call! | Jun 12th. at 4:37:14 pm EDT
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Amaranthus (Enola, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
But I have to agree with the city on this one. I work in a facilities maintenance department of a national retail corporation and by our standards? If it's spray paint, it's graffiti and has to go! Things like that only encourage more spray paint "rebuttals" from the community at large and then you have a real mess on your hands!!!!
Had the owner taken the time and care to paint this on with a brush and make it look more like "art", I would have sided with him. But this was a sloppy and crude way of getting in the face of his neighbors and the city, so the owner deserves all the hassles he has brought upon himself.
There are many way to be out of the broom closet with your home or even your officespace without being a nuisance to others. This wasn't one of them......
Better luck next time........
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| Most Cities Are Very Strict About Graffiti | Jun 12th. at 4:28:04 pm EDT
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
If he had hung metal or carved wooden symbols on his fence they would not have been "graffiti" but decorations. Black symbols spray painted on a new fence would seem to be graffiti and, in my opinion, would encourage other spraypainting over it as taggers tried to improve the painting.
I am gonna side with the city here - they probably would allow him a mural on his house but this appears to be graffiti (even though intentional by the owner) and most places would not allow it, even if the symbols were christian.
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| 2 Cents (or An Eyedropper Of Gasoline) | Jun 12th. at 3:58:37 pm EDT
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Artemis (Denver Metro, Colorado) - Email Me
I FULLY support his rights to express his religiosity and his freedom to display his symbols openly. However, and this seems very petty, if they had been presented in a more 'artistic' manner, perhaps they wouldn't look so 'graffiti-ish'. If they so fine him, it should be specifically for having graffiti on his fence and have NOTHING to do with what it contains.
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| I'm Leaning Towards The City On This One | Jun 12th. at 3:50:30 pm EDT
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Okami Myrrhibis (Woodbridge, Virginia) - Email Me
It looks like graffiti. Perhaps a more stylistic approach would be better, or just doing it on his (in) side of the fence?
If *noone* else has *anything* painted/engraved on the outside of their fences, then it's not specific to him.
I've been out of the closet for 14 years (never had to be, Gods be thanked) . However, unless it was a policy that I saw unfairly applied (Jewish holidays paid for w/o using personal leave, mine were not) , was not worth screaming "HEY! I want special treatment!"
I think that this gentleman may be one to bring attention to himself, largely to push folks' buttons.
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| This Fence Has Issues... | Jun 12th. at 12:06:40 pm EDT
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
It looks almost like the stuff I've had to paint over on the side of my garage- and it looked painted in the same way.
While I do agree that what you do on your own property is your own business, painting such symbols on the outside of a privacy fence sort of negates its purpose. Especially in a neighborhood where nobody else is doing the same thing. And while I don't mind the symbols, they do look like something that was hastily scrawled on. And yeah, it looks like graffitti. Not something done with love or attention.
Our actions as Pagans define us more loudly than the symbols we carry. While I would like to shout to the world that I am Pagan from time to time, I am hoping for a time when it won't be necessary.
The city isn't fighting the fact that he is Pagan, it is the mess he has made of the fence that looks more like a gang did it, no matter the symbols used. He is trying to pick a fight where none might exist-or he may be angry at his neighbors. Whichever.
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| It Sucks... | Jun 12th. at 9:38:28 am EDT
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Ezri (Centennial, Colorado) - Email Me
But I agree with the city, and the other commentors. It's not a matter of some kind of religious discrimination, it's a matter of not being authorized to draw symbols all over the outside of your fence.
There are all sorts of things he could do to decorate his house, he should go with one of those instead.
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| Rules Is Rules... | Jun 12th. at 8:13:47 am EDT
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Eran Rathan (Old Town, Maine) - Email Me
And, based on the city's ordinance, its graffiti. period. thats it.
That being said, yes, the symbols are tacky. And being as hastily done as they are would make them fairly ineffective, since little or no time and energy has been put into them.
just my thoughts.
Eran Rathan
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| Gotta Go With The City On This One | Jun 12th. at 8:09:55 am EDT
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Lori Dake (Chicago, Illinois) - Email Me - Web
It would be no different than if someone wanted to have a graffiti-styled mural painted on a wall. Many see it as art, but some see it as graffiti, and for stuff like that, you have to get an okay first, or at least check the books. Double that if one has a homeowner's association. (My brother's wife couldn't even paint the door red because of that!)
I've seen people use Sharpies and nail polish to add tiny runes and whatnot to their fences as protection and welcoming symbols, but they were done slowly and carefully - tastefully even - and not big, bold and garish.
Oh and BTW: I'm so happy to see the News back up! Love ya Wren! :)
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