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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 18654
[Civil]
Date Posted:
10/11/2007
1:22:02 pm EDT
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Views: 7,701
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Comments: 21
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Grad Student Suspended After Pro-Gun-Rights E-Mail
Author: Declan McCullagh, The Iconoclast Source: CNET.com
Title: GRAD STUDENT SUSPENDED AFTER PRO-GUN-RIGHTS E-MAIL
A Minnesota university has suspended one of its graduate students who sent two e-mail messages to school officials supporting gun rights.
Hamline University also said that master's student Troy Scheffler, who owns a firearm, would be barred from campus and must receive a mandatory "mental health evaluation" after he sent an e-mail message arguing that law-abiding students should be able to carry firearms on campus for self-defense.
Hamline spokesman Jacqueline Getty declined on Wednesday to answer questions about the suspension, saying that federal privacy laws prohibited the school from commenting. Scheffler had previously waived his privacy rights in a letter to Hamline University President Linda Hanson.
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Community Thoughts: There are 21 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Really About Ethics And Frauds | Oct 13th. at 3:29:17 pm EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me - Web
This is not about 2nd Amendment RTKBA, even if that civil rights model is overdue to be given the same respect by private institutions many offer the 1st Amendment. Hamline is a private, Methodist school, accredited by a church panel, and is not a public university. Also notable as to likely political and religious biases is that it's home to the "Bush Library".
The Hamline CAPA program costs $404 per credit, with a typical program involving 4 credits per trimester of evening classes over 3 years, plus about $1000 a year in other costs and fees, per that graduate division's stated Web site program policies and rates. $6000 per year for 3 years, with most students working days and so not paying undergrad room and board on the main campus, is not exactly the high cost full time grad students at top tier universities experience as they run up 6 figure student loans.
We might then wonder, if this conflict isn't about most of the superficially stated facts, what is it about?
It would appear to really be about the same type of inherent contradiction between rabid fundy dogma and diverse society, as surfaced recently at Regent U's law school. At Regent a self-identified liberal xtian law student distributed a picture of Pat Robertson scratching his face in a way which appeared to be giving the middle finger "fvck you" salute to his TV audience, on a Facebook profile or via a school listserver, depending on whose version of facts is accurate. At Hamline, the actual emails as linked from Declan's article and hosted by FIRE suggest casual disputes with some history outside the emails, where both schools have policies at odds with themselves, playing both ends against the middle claiming to be obnoxious bible thumpers with the highest of ethics for diverse American society. Students are merely challenging them to honestly play by their own stated rules, which rules are at odds with themselves, and functional needs of larger society, and legal policies which these schools aren't bound by, but need to reflect in order to meet some of their stated contractual agreements (and violate under other such terms) . The schools are in a Catch 22, where they cannot play by their rules without changing them, to honestly declare what nasty malicious predators they intend to be, or declare their own religious dogma as defective.
Either way, the violation by Regent U or Hamline may be that of contract fraud, in possibly difficult to litigate forms since some of the fraud apparently reflects verbal interpretations of policy not openly documented. Here's some coverage of Adam M. Key's conflicts with Regent, and Pat Robertson, a "real" rather than 4th tier law school grad (Yale v Regent) , intentionally misrepresenting his religious meaning for "obscene" as if the "Miller" based legal one: (Note also VA AP Bureau Chief Larry O'Dell's style of professional reporting, versus the often inflammatory and editorializing of purported facts styles often seen in stories here. Larry attributes biased opinions directly to cited sources, and sticks to reporting facts himself.)
[Web LINK]
[Web LINK]
[Web LINK]
[Web LINK]
Both of these xtian run schools are engaging in the same warped tactics, of claiming a dissident student is a threat based on undisclosed secret "evidence". They're not expelling the student or subjecting him to disciplinary process, but banning him from campus prior to completing cult (de?) programming with an approved shrink, as an alleged security risk for super-secret cult reasons not subject to open discussion or challenge. That must be good training for other students, in how to run star chambers. Or, if the alleged witch drowns, she's innocent and doesn't need to be hanged as would those who float like broken wood as witches are wont known to do.
The danger in both these cases doesn't impress me as being the accused students at all. It's the fact that church schools are operating law and public policy graduate programs, and working to infest government with bureaucrats indoctrinated to violate Constitutional rights. These private schools don't have to uphold the Bill of Rights internally. There's little employment for people trained in Masters programs as public administrators, nor as court officers with doctorates, wherein they don't assume the legal obligations these schools are dancing around. These students aren't young undergrads, but fully cognitively developed (at least in brain physiology) grad students. If the schools can't or won't live within ethical models which parallel the obligations of students as future government leaders to function within Constitutional principles, perhaps it's the schools which should be challenged and shut down as dangers to their own students and society at large?
Find More info -- HERE
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| Education, Guns - And University Policies | Oct 13th. at 12:23:48 am EDT
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nasionnaich (Stanchfield, Minnesota) - Email Me
First, let me just say that I am appalled at the seeming lack of true education amongst today's youth. Note, I said "seeming", since only a very noticeable handful of young people either refrain from - or do not know how to - use proper sentence structure, grammar (yes, sometimes they are two different things) and spelling. Sadly, many of these people are college-educated, as well....
Some have said that Mr. Scheffler wasn't really complaining about having to share the school with people of "color", just that he doesn't like to pay such an exorbitant tuition fee. Well, according to the meaning of the WORDING in his e-mails, he was saying that he does not want to pay for the education of all those lazy niggers and kikes who won't go get a job to pay for their own education. Such a nice young fellow, the kind you want to bring home to Mother....not.
For the record: I have never attended college, even a "bad" college, yet I am not poorly educated. If a person truly wishes to learn, they will do whatever it takes to learn - they will NOT just sit back and expect to be taught. And those who have been educated - why not show it at all times, so that others will actually take you seriously?
Mr. Scheffler may have used threatening language towards Hamline officials/staff, and he may have simply used a poor choice of words. He obviously was not using his "superior" education or intelligence in either case. As I said in my previous posting here, it appears to my eyes that FIRE has removed portions of at least one e-mail - possibly to further their own agenda.
I do not have all the information needed to render any sort of "Official Judgment" on this, nor does anyone here. Until I do have that information, I shall reserve any such judgment. I advise everyone else to do the same. Unless, of course, you wish to be judged unfairly in return.
One last thing: Many people want to carry guns on campus... Okay, fine. But when people start shooting at PERCEIVED threats, will you just shake your head and say "Why didn't anyone see this coming...."? Before anyone brings out the clubs to crush the "bleeding-heart liberal": I happen to believe in the 2nd Amendment, and I also know that guns are not the answer to violence. Shootings occur not only because the shooter "knows" they won't be stopped - but because the shooter doesn't give a damn any more. The Virginia Tech shooter didn't give a damn - he shot himself.
----nasionnaich
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| I Don't See Why... | Oct 12th. at 6:05:59 pm EDT
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Mirian (Urbana, Illinois) - Email Me
this guy is being punished at all. He hasn't threatened anyone. He hasn't broken any laws. I didn't even notice any excessive swearing. People have complained about his grammar, but considering the people's tendency to lower the level of their speech slightly in electronic messages, I don't think there was anything that bad in there. While not all of the assertions that he made in his emails may be true we are not in a position to know that for a fact, and judging by my own university experience, I do not doubt that there is probably some truth to them. And I agree wholeheartedly with the assertion that it is not the people who obtain legal conceal-carry licenses that perpetrate gun crime. Criminals aren't the type to go out and obtain legal conceal-carry licenses before bringing a gun to campus for a shootout.
P.S. While I cannot be sure, judging by my own university experience, when he points out that he does not need to open his textbooks, he is probably referring neither to the intellectual difficulty of the course, nor to his own intelligence or study habits, but rather to the fact that professors are compelling students to purchase extravagantly expensive works... and then not utilizing them in the course. More than once, I have been forced to purchase a brand-new, $100+ value textbook for a course, only to find that it is a terrible text, or that the professor doesn't really use it, or sometimes both. Once or twice, I have gone to the bookstore to purchase a reqired text, only to find that the bookstores don't even have enough copies of the work to supply the class. The textbook industry is a horrible industry, where students are forced to shell out hundreds of dollars a semester (I usually spend somewhere between 400-600) for books which, half of the time, they use seldom, or never at all. New editions are reprinted every few years, despite the fact that, most of the time, the changes made between the new edition and the old one are superficial at best, and pointless at worst. Even the authors of the books seldom make any profit from their effort; most of the money made from the books goes to pay various publishing fees. And even when you try to make a little of your money back by selling the book at the end of the semester, you're lucky if you get back so much as 20% of what you paid. That is, if they take your book back at all.
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| Sorry | Oct 12th. at 10:19:22 am EDT
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Zianna Elanesse (Lusby, Maryland) - Email Me
The links didn't work, but they are www.drhelen.blogspot.com The title is "Quick call the cops a conservative is on the loose" , an www.captainsquartersblog.com which has a couple articles and comments on them.
This is a link to this students profile that is rather interesting: [Web LINK]
Blessed Be,
Zianna
Find More info -- HERE
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| This School Should Be Embarassed... | Oct 12th. at 10:03:16 am EDT
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Zianna Elanesse (Lusby, Maryland) - Email Me - Web
The most embarassing thing for the school is that this moron got his undergraduate degree and is now a master's degree student at their school. It appears that their standards are so low that his only hope for a graduate degree is at their university...otherwise, he would have gone someplace with better policies and lower tuition.
I would like to see more details on the other complaints taken into consideration for the suspension, but the 2 emails seem to show an escalation that does warant some concern.
First email …”according to the university president that there were recently serious “hate crimes” that were committed in the womens bathrooms; there may be people on the edge ready to snap. I cant say I blame them, I myself am tired of having to pay my own extremely overpriced tuition to make up for minorities not paying theirs. On top of that, I am sick of seeing them held to a different standard than the white students (Of course its a lower and more lenient standard) . “
Second email “I bet the staff here is wondering how a swastika ended up in a bathroom... More people than you can imagine are tired of this all. It’s just sad that they resort to petty vandalism rather than speak their mind like I am. “
I followed one of the links and found a couple interesting articles that you might enjoy. Some of the comments are sooooo funny you will die laughing.
Blessed Be,
Zianna
Find More info -- HERE
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| Hmm | Oct 12th. at 7:25:15 am EDT
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Ravenowl (Amboy, Oklahoma) - Email Me
One its not race he is talking about its the bs that goes to promote racial diversity. While it was needed 50 years ago, to promote change, it is not needed now. It is in fact against the constitution. It promotes one race over another. What he is complaining about is how high his tution is because he views the "free riders" as being the problem. He is out money because of it. Thats an incorrect assumption but its his none the less.
His intellegence was in fact never actually written in any form. He is merely advocating how horrible the education he is receiving is. I would be pissed to if I was paying that much for an education and not recieving what I seen as getting my moneys worth. Im sorry but dinner at a nice sit down resturant is not the same thing as eating at a fast food giant. He clearly states this several times over the two emails.
If you have been getting this horrid education, how would you feel if you thought that if you transfered to another university you would fail out because your not adequately educated to keep up with the material being taught. Would you not feel trapped. It wouldnt help his chances of transferring to another university since he now has a rather black mark on his permanant record. Being labeled in that manor is much the same as being labeled as a sex offender. It comes with the same stigma these days. To universities that is.
To me he is understandably frustrated. It wouldnt have helped that he was punished for free speech and the fact that they are violating his student rights. IE his right to know what he is being accused of. Since Hamline will not actually tell him, he has every right to tell them to bugger off and go back to school until they get up the nerve to actually tell him the reasons.
The issue is they wont do that until its already been done. Because they know that FIRE will sue them. Anyhows im done with my rant.
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| Great Idea, Make Schools A Criminal Safe-zone... | Oct 12th. at 1:28:22 am EDT
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Raven (Greeley, Colorado) - Email Me
They punish someone for pointing out the stupidity of banning the only tool that has any chance of stopping a murderer from killing our kids. Dumb.
It seems that the only solution that the morons in academia have to the problem of our children being deliberately targeted by these Ritalin addicted wingnuts is to have the kids hide behind their desks. Dumb.
That's like telling everyone that when there's a fire, you need forget about using those nasty fire-extinguishers and wrap yourself in a gas soaked nylon curtain and wait for help. Dumb.
I challenge anyone who thinks that private ownership of these mere tools (firearms) is unneeded, inherently dangerous and of no use for self-defense, to erect a sign in their front yard that states clearly "This home does not have any firearms, we are defenseless".
Think about it.
Self-defense is both a civil right and a human right.
Find More info -- HERE
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| He Said, They Said... | Oct 12th. at 1:13:15 am EDT
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nasionnaich (Stanchfield, Minnesota) - Email Me
Did Troy Scheffler use threatening language towards staff/Officials at Hamline University? I don't know, but then I don't know if "FIRE" has reported things accurately, either. The first e-mail linked to in the news article looks to me like the first portion has been "snipped". But, as I said, I don't know.
Mr. Scheffler complains about minorities "getting a free ride" (my words, not his, but the same meaning) . He also seems to feel that he is somehow vastly superior in intelligence, as well: "...so far I am almost finished with half of my MAPA degree and havent even cracked a book." For someone who is so vastly superior in intelligence, he sure has a knack for showing quite the opposite. Unless he means the courses are so easy that even a brain-damaged monkey could pass them....in which case, just why did he not simply enroll at another university?
Perhaps he really did threaten people at Hamline, perhaps he simply used extremely bad judgment in choosing his wording. I do not know for sure, nor do I really care.
What I DO know is that he never once bothered to show any sort of proof which could possibly back up his claims that had conceal-carry guns been allowed at Virginia Tech, all those deaths would not have happened; all he has are suppositions. And this is from a person trying to get a Master's Degree.... Oh, and Hamline does not espouse Methodist ideals/doctrines, it simply CLAIMS to promote Methodist values/ethics - the same values/ethics shared by ALL religions world-wide. Another mark against this "superior" intelligence....
Troy Scheffler can't handle diversity and "Racial Equality" (it is my view that there is no such thing as "Race") , so he hides behind "Free Speech" to complain about it - and he has been called out for his views. As the Right-wing Conservative voters said about Bush "winning" the election: Live with it, folks.
----nasionnaich
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| Ummm...no... | Oct 12th. at 12:18:53 am EDT
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Riding A Pale Horse (Coeur d'Alene, Idaho) - Email Me
He shouldn't be punished in any way. From what I read, he did nothing that would violate any of the over 20,000 firearms laws currently on the books in the U.S. He has every right to express his opinion, just as others do, about the carrying of a firearm. He wasn't carrying it on campus so I see no real justification for any kind of punishment. Perhaps he did say things that some may find offensive, but as many times as I've read the Constitution and the Bill or Rights, I haven't found where you have the right to never be offended by someone.
As to the Second Amendment, it does NOT say that only a well regulated Milita may own guns, only that the States may maintain one; if you read it, it says the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. This can be interpreted many ways, but it seems to be the ONLY place in the Constitution where gun control advocates argue the definition of "people" as being anything other than the civilian population. Now, this amendment seems to apply (according the the Supreme Court) to Federal government, and although only one or two areas actually have an outright ban on certain firearms, many states have made it virtually impossible to obtain one, at least for the honest person.
Statistics have consistently shown that states with Concealed Carry laws have lower violent crime rates such as rape, murder and assault, and less than 1/100 of a percent of those that carry one will be involved in some kind of illegal activity; you're more likely to be killed accidentally by a doctor.
Just to give you an idea of how much I actually support the right, I'm considered by most to be a die-hard Democrat, but I have several firearms and Concealed Carry Permits in 3 states that will allow me to carry my weapon in as many as 30.
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| He Should Not Be Punished | Oct 11th. at 11:49:11 pm EDT
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Wind Storm (Wonder Lake, Illinois) - Email Me
just becouse he is arguing an opinoin not popular with the school. He has freedom of speech. After all are schools even invite the President of Iran to speek while allowing former members of the Taliban to take classes. So why is this mans opinoin so dangerous
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| Did You Not Notice | Oct 11th. at 11:07:40 pm EDT
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
The school did not punish him for his opinion on the right of properly permitted persons to carry guns nor for being opposed to paying for the education of others he feels should not have a free education, nor for objecting to non-christian instructors at a christian college. THEY NEVER TOLD HIM WHAT THEY ARE PUNISHING HIM FOR - some student (s) or faculty who must have their privacy protected have said something that must be kept secret to protect their privacy and that is what he is suspended for. They had to stop saying it was because of his e-mails because suspending him for being a bigot and wanting licensed individuals to be able to carry guns on campus violated his free speech rights and the policies of the school.
This is a major violation of the basic principles of this country - you must know what you are accused of to defend yourself.
And, by the way, gun control does include having to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Here in Oregon, not one of the over 100,000 people with concealed carry permits has ever been arrested for a gun related crime, not even brandishing (you lose your permit if you are arrested for almost anything or have a restraining order taken out against you) . Whether or not to allow guns to be carried on college campuses is something to be discussed and decided upon in a rational manner, not just by saying guns=bad. Getting rid of handguns will not stop criminals - I still know how to make the classic "saturday night special" aka zip gun and I have never been a criminal.
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| Funny | Oct 11th. at 9:36:19 pm EDT
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Nicole (Philadelphia, Switzerland) - Email Me
I find it funny that he talks about how hard he works compared to minorities, yet he hasn't unwrapped any of his books...
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| Here Is Some Follow Up Info... | Oct 11th. at 9:29:27 pm EDT
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| Since When Do.. | Oct 11th. at 9:28:35 pm EDT
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Orion 6Xray (Park City, Kentucky) - Email Me - Web
WE flag a person for epressing a view point. This PC crap is helping bring the down fall of this country.
Ask yourself why congress, ie the house, just passed the Veterans Disarmament Bill.
Which would take away the 2nd Amendmant right of all Veterans who are diagnossed with PTSD.
Oh by the way, as long as Jim Bo and Billy Bob hold regular meeting for drill they are a "well regulated malitia".
Jim Bo, Billy Bob, and people like me are the only thing standing between you libs who harp the first admendmant and a despotic government.
Protesting means crap unless you can back it up. All governments turn despotic at one point and the only thing they fear is a well armed and informed public.
Ask Jefferson!!!
Find More info -- HERE
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| Rights Vs Privileges | Oct 11th. at 7:17:46 pm EDT
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Lorca (Longview, Washington) - Email Me
He may have had the right to say what he did. Indeed, there is no law against being an angry, ignorant, racist a**hole, but demonstrating those particular traits won't endear one to an academic community that (rightly) eschews them. I hope the expel him permanently.
Oh, and on the gun thing? I fully support the argument that licensed and trained individuals should be able to carry anywhere they want. Yes, anywhere. They let criminals do it, so why not law abiding citizens?
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