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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 19932
[Civil]
Date Posted:
8/15/2008
2:30:47 pm EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 30,794
RSS: 12,868
Comments: 23
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Ohio Library Can't Block Religious Group's Meeting
Author: The Associated Press Source: First Amendment Center Online
Title: OHIO LIBRARY CAN'T BLOCK RELIGIOUS GROUP'S MEETING
  A federal judge ruled yesterday that a central Ohio library can't stop a conservative Christian activist group from holding a meeting with religious aspects inside a library meeting room.
The ruling by U.S. District Judge George C. Smith permanently prohibits Upper Arlington Public Library near Columbus from excluding activities it deems are "inherent elements of a religious service" or elements that are "quintessentially religious." He said in the ruling that his finding in favor of Cincinnati-based Citizens for Community Values was a narrow one and that the group would be harmed by not being allowed to hold its meeting at the library.
The judge's conclusion expressed no opinion on the constitutionality of the library's policy of precluding religious services.
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Community Thoughts: There are 23 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Things To Consider Here | Aug 18th. at 6:27:12 pm EDT
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Azrael (Manteca, California) - Email Me
I've looked through all the postings here, and of 22 thus far, only two are from Ohio, and neither touches on either of the topics I mean to bring up. Perhaps a poster other than these two has been to this library -- not that I mean the two from Ohio have -- but I see no evidence of this.
First and foremost, yes, this is a public building, funded with tax dollars. I would find it highly inconsistent with the 1st Amendment should any of the *library staff* be trying to officiate in any religious proceedings held on library grounds, or to participate in them in an official capacity, but this is not the case. These are private citizens using what their tax dollars have paid for. The same rights that allow for religious meetings and services to be held in public parks hold true here in the library.
Second, concerns over singing in a library *meeting room* would depend on the building itself. Manteca's public library is set up in such a way that this group's singing, if moderate, would disturb nary a library patron. Our library meeting room is separated from the main library by a large foyer, where the restrooms are, and two sets of doors on either side of the foyer. I don't know whether this is the case in Columbus, but it would certainly allow for this ruling to be a reasonable one.
Perhaps these thoughts clarify?
Blessings to all,
Chris
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| Religious, Schmigious | Aug 18th. at 5:00:25 pm EDT
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Dana Corby (Anderson Island, Washington) - Email Me
I agree with several other posters that a place that offers meeting spaces ought not to exclude anyone on the basis of what they might be talking about.
The crux of the matter is -- or should have been -- that the group intended to sing. A library is not an appropriate venue for a rousing group sing, whether it's "Onward Christian Soldiers" or "We All Come From the Goddess." It infringes on the right of other library patrons to pursue their reading in peace, plain and simple.
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| So What | Aug 18th. at 2:46:00 pm EDT
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Rutilus Draconis (Fair Haven, Michigan) - Email Me
The Mount Clemens Library here in Michigan has a Pagan group hold meetings every month, and has for some time and nobody complains.If this group isn't bothering anyone then let them hold their meetings. If then it turns out they are planning or instigating any kind of offenses to others then kick them out. Also any other group should also be allowed to hold meetings as long as they abid by the same rules.
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| Public Services | Aug 18th. at 1:33:08 pm EDT
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Finn (San Marcos, Texas) - Email Me
Libraries and Parks (among other things) are public services paid for by taxes. They exist for public use. This includes clubs and religious organizations. As long as the groups who avail themselves of the facilities and services obey the rules, there is no good reason to bar them from it. The IDIOTIC notion that religious groups should be banned from all places administered by the government doesn't hold water. The people of various religions also paid for those facilities and have just as much right to use the meeting rooms as anyone else. Christian, Wiccan, Pagan, Heathen, Muslim and whatever else all have the same rights.
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| F***ing Outrageous! | Aug 17th. at 11:05:55 pm EDT
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Karl (Detroit Metro, Michigan) - Email Me
NO religious activity or religious meeting of any kind should be allowed in a public building, period.
According to the Adherents web site: ( [Web LINK] ) there are about 4,200 religious organizations. EVERY SINGLE ONE of these that operates near the Upper Arlington Public Library should go to this library to hold its meetings. If they are refused, they should SUE for discrimination based on the fact that Christians were allowed to hold “religious aspects” meetings there, and they should win.
With hundreds of different groups showing up to schedule meetings, the absurdity of this should be clear to even the most mentally challenged or dogmatically deluded fundie.
All you Pagans, Wiccans, Satanists, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Hebrews, Sikhs, et al, in the Columbus area, be sure to call the Upper Arlington Public Library RIGHT NOW to schedule your “religious aspects” meeting!
K
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| This Can Be | Aug 17th. at 6:23:58 pm EDT
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Ravensgate Keep Realm Of Mystery (N/A, Illinois) - Email Me - Web
easily remedied by having witches and pagans demanding the same rights.
Cheers,
Raven
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| Poor Christian Fanatics! | Aug 17th. at 5:58:30 pm EDT
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foreverknightfan (Dardanelle, Arkansas) - Email Me
Poor guys!! They can't heckle, disrupt and basically be a nusiance while they abuse others in the public library.
If they were quiet, orderly and not disruptive, they should be able to have their meetngs at the library-- as would anyone else.
Doesn anyone besides me find it highly ironic that there are books in the public library these self-righteous idiots would love to burn if they had their way? I mean they are surrounded by Harry Potter, Dawkins, Lord of the RIngs and pretty much everything they profess to hate. And yet they are allowed access. However it doesn't work the other way around, does it?
You gotta love those fundy fanatics. With the Halloween decorations starting to come up in stores, the poor little puritans will be busy scowling and condemning,
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| As Long As Order Is Maintained | Aug 17th. at 10:39:53 am EDT
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Silverwing (Colorado Springs, Colorado) - Email Me
A library is,from my experience, a place for quiet study, browsing and reading. Meeting rooms are for quiet discussion punctuated with occasional laughter or other things that happen in the normal course of group meetings. Anyone, whatever the topic, should not be taking the meeting out to others in the library or putting up large signs to do the non-verbal invade behavior. Librarians need to be able to reinforce the rules of the library without fear of being sued. People using the library should be ready to obey those rules or find another location. IMO.
I notice the judge made a narrow ruling and did not touch on the topic of services held in libraries. Heh! I see them in public schools all the time. Church startups somehow wangle space in public schools for their weekly services. I had not seen that come up on anyones radar yet.
Library = peace, quiet, read, study, get work done
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| I Would Be All In Favor Of Them Meeting......... | Aug 17th. at 1:57:07 am EDT
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Jedi Gordy (Edinboro, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
except, if i recall from previous articles correctly, they were trying to convert people, harrassing people, and singing VERY loudly, something you dont do in the library. The library let them off with a warning, but they kept up their bad behavior, and were forced to leave.
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| What Is Seperation Of Church And State, Anyway? | Aug 17th. at 12:46:08 am EDT
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Piano Tm (Miami, Florida) - Email Me
I have always gone back to this. It is a pretty important law, after all. Imagine my surprise when I learned that seperation of church and state was never written into law. It is supported purely by judicial precedent. So what is that precedent?
It ties in with the First Amendment. We have the freedom of speech, religion, press, petition and peaceful assembly. Our government may not favor or condone a specific religion and an official representing the government may not publicly favor a specific religion. What this means is that the mayor can put a manger scene in front of his house, but not in front of City Hall. Likewise, the mayor cannot tell a citizen how to worship. If I go in front of City Hall, on the lawn of that structure, and preach Paganism, I cannot be lawfully removed because I am not a state employee and to be removed from public property would be religious discrimination.
To bring this to close, according to these legal precendents, a library, being public property, may not promote a specific religion, but they may not stop members of the community from promoting their religions within library walls.
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| I Must Agree With The Ruling | Aug 16th. at 3:21:15 pm EDT
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Gaune Quietstorm (Los Angeles, California) - Email Me
As a Wiccan I have to be for this ruling simply because if this story was about a pagan group trying to hold a meeting we will be all jumping for joy and shouting finally we get our day. What I would love to see now in turn is for a pagan group in the area to test the law out after the ruling and hold a monthly esbat in the same library and see what happens.
As Wiccans we must be on a higher level than the ones who discriminate against us and not go down to their level. A win for religion any religion is a win for all religion and not just for Christians. So I say if any pagan groups in the area go and grab the hall for your meeting and see what happens.
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| I'm Confused | Aug 16th. at 2:43:44 pm EDT
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Morgan Ravenwood (Lake Havasu City, Arizona) - Email Me
In my town, the Unitarian Universalists meet at the public library in one of the conference rooms. For all I know, other religious groups do, too. Heck, I might even rent one of them if I had an active coven or circle going. I just don't see what the problem is.
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| Shhhhhhh.... | Aug 16th. at 10:45:49 am EDT
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Medea (Somewhere, Massachusetts) - Email Me
Revival meetings in the public library. Can I get an Amen! Shout Hallelujah.
I personally think this is inappropriate for many reasons, separation of church and state being primary among them, but if these people are going to be singing and praising, that's disruptive. Don't these people have an actual CHURCH to hold their meetings in?
Well, then. I guess it isn't about not having a place to hold their meeting, is it. It seems to me that it's really about pushing their message into everyone's face in public.
It doesn't surprise me that they would want to hold their meeting in a library anyway, because of course, heaven knows the place isn't for READING is it.
I think these people probably can't read anyway. Unless it's the bible. So what more eddikayshun does anyone need? *Sigh*
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| I Disagree | Aug 16th. at 9:53:13 am EDT
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Sy (Atlanta, Georgia) - Email Me
Personally, I'm of the firm opinion that the government (and therefore any government run agency, perhaps even government-funded agency) , because of the 1st Amendment restricting the establishment of a religion, should remain thoroughly agnostic. For that reason, I think that the library should refuse any religious service (or anti-religious service, in the case of the atheist) . They may discuss politics, philosophy, but no religious service, period, for ANYONE.
A public library is for research or reading, not worship. Religious groups must find their own sacred space for worship - it can't be on the government's dime.
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| One Thing Is Certain... | Aug 16th. at 9:22:22 am EDT
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
I would hate to be a library patron being accosted by some religious yahoo while I'm trying to do some important work, or merely check out a book to read. And you can bet that these are a people that would take offense to anything I checked out while they are standing there trying to preach to me.
I still go with the assumption that there are enough churches and places for them to meet without disturbing the peace of those in a library. My guess is they are trying to make a point, that they have a "right" to hold their meetings anywhere they please. And that is just another step to proselytizing where they please, especially in any place declared off limits.
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