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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 14028
[Religious]
Date Posted:
9/29/2005
3:53:18 pm EDT
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Views: 11,963
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Comments: 50
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Column: Student Message Was A Bad Idea
Author: Jeff Hall Source: The Edmond Sun (OK)
Title: COLUMN: STUDENT MESSAGE WAS A BAD IDEA
For the past few days, I have talking with pagans. Well, not face to face. E-mails from self-described pagans in Louisiana, California and other states have filled my computer’s in-basket.
No, they’re not trying to convert me to worshipping trees or animal spirits. They were reacting to an article we ran last Thursday concerning a “See You at the Pole” event held at North High School.
What the pagans — and please remember, this is how they describe themselves — found “disturbing” about the article was how these young people wrote down on small pieces of paper the names of “non-Christian students” at the school and nailed them to a cross they brought to accompany the prayer service.
I have to say I agree.
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Community Thoughts: There are 50 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Newspaper Forum Topic | Oct 2nd. at 3:23:47 pm EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
It appears the Cushing Daily Citizen and Edmond Sun are part of a large family of papers in several states and regions. They share a common Web forum presence, via the Groupee third party commercial operation that allows common logins to all participating systems (most unrelated to these papers, though special permissions are needed, in this case mainly a username for those papers, and optional location and avatar) .
There is discussion of this topic at the Cushing headlines forum, but zero discussion on any topic in the Edmond site, suggesting perhaps less computer usage or lower distribution of the Edmond local paper (anyone familiar with the area?) . That's found here (or below) :
[Web LINK]
A related topic we as pagans need to address more openly among ourselves has popped up, towards which I posted the following there. (Guest viewing of the whole thread is possible, but registration required to post.)
===
Word case is a tricky issue in religious and lifestyle issues.
Is a person living on the heath necessarily a Heathen or a Pagan? Of course not. A Heathen is generally a form of Earth-centric pagan who is a naturalist, and may have views of deities as human created concepts to picture complex elements of nature, which may be close to a Scientific Pantheist, or some forms of Wiccans who view deities as symbolic rather than entities. There's often a lot of overlap between those views and those of many humanists (which may or may not be a religious reference, by individual choice which has no outward indications) and some atheists, but great divergence from those Wiccans who believe deities are supernatural or exist as entities, more similarly to post-Vatican so-called christians.
Is a doctrinal Paulist Humanist a "Christian", or a "christian" or "xtian"? Very few self-described "Christians" appear to follow the suggested practices of a reputed Jewish philosopher king street bum whose path they generally claim to emulate. The more common use of that word reference often reflects practices that suggest goals antithetical to such early Christianity, and to instead be based on worship of human fabricated dogma from institutions which didn't exist until circa 300 c.e. or 1500 c.e., a humanist perspective based on Paul's notions primarily. The range of different sects or families of religions self-identifying as christian in some variant isn't as broad as those which meet the generic definition of "pagan" (every non-Abrahamic religion, including many non-deistic or non-institutional ones) . It impresses me as including such conflicted core ideologies and practices that there is not in truth a single "Christian" religion, but rather many different religions, some of which assume clear names (eg, Chinese or Roman Catholicism, various Orthodoxies, various Protestant sects) . Those using the "C" word in upper case often make confusing and misleading word choices.
The same is true for "big P" pagans. An honor based hunter-warrior path like Asatru is very much different from no-harm based pagan paths, and a Strega is not a Wiccan of any variety, even if the former offers the historic roots of many Dianic paths and practioners of both are witches (as are some christians and some Jews) . Neither are Shamanic generally, whether Asian or Native American or neopagan, which paths have serious overlap with Celtic and Druidic paths, which often also overlap Heathenism. Some Wiccans are perfectly understanding of Santeros ritually killing chickens and other animals, while others fail to understand how that form of worship can be respectful and a balance of nature, which in turn overlaps some traits of Judaism. (Santeria has tribal roots where animal sacrifice had practical benefits in promoting the sharing of limited high protein foods, similar to health goals of Jewish dietary laws prior to science explaining certain pork or shellfish borne microorganisms) . For some pagans to claim that word, and demand that it be always used in upper case in reference to pagans who self-identify with other more precise path names, can be disrespectful and ignorant, as well as confusing people without understandings of minority religions who don't know what to make of such issues. It would be far easier if pagans and christians all considered those words generic references to religious families, and chose more precise proper nouns to identify specific sects or paths, which weren't one and the same words as generic references.
How's a reporter to work at the 7th or 9th Reader Level as most average and more literary newspapers attempt, and handle these issues well? It doesn't work to require most readers to complete a thesis and dissertation for postgraduate work in comparative and world religions. A starting point does require noticing some tricky issues, and trying to avoid the pitfalls where Jeff used obvious smears in his style book (papers and press syndicates often work from uniform style standards) . It's the same kind of issue where black, person of color, Indian, Native American, and other ethnic cultural references that have more precise ancestral or historic meanings not only lack clear standards for what is respectful or not, while being accurate or not, but see controversy among those to whom they refer as to what implications follow specific words. An Abrahamic is clearly a christian, Jew, or Muslim usually, but that leaves some gray areas as to whether Sufis are in fact Muslims, and how to treat Baha'is or Zoroastrians. Some Buddhists among their 6000 semi-autonomous monastic lineages, as well as many Taoists, might claim those are paths or practices and not religions, which by some definitions is true, whereas they are clearly religions under meanings backed by Supreme Court and other precedents for purposes of US laws. American Atheists, inc, or Freedom From Religion Foundation (secularist) members might complain about being called religionists, but they too are for US legal purposes, contrary to their self-identifications. A Dianic pagan is a proper name reference, like an Abrahamic, and always is a proper name unlike pagan or christian, which are more often generic family references. It makes no sense to capitalize pagan or christian unless referencing a specific group using those words as proper names, which cannot be done without causing language smear and valid complaints that persons so identifying are obfuscating amorphous semantics and smudging meaningful memetic framing. What do they really mean?
Unless and until people of various religions work out for themselves self-identifications which are clear and distinct from generic family references, it's unfair to expect reporters to outguess every detail. What would be more fair is to use references to self-identified religions more broadly when that is the source of a description. Many people baptized Catholic or conscribed to the LDS member roles, some post-mortem, would self-identify as nonreligious, or some form of pagan or other christian sect. They'd also meet the nominal rules for being members of other churches which they personally reject. Complicating that are issues of such details not being ones most people ever think through clearly, as well as being private issues, and reporters might best be very careful about how they report any religious identities of individuals. It simply isn't always possible to do without either using more words than the entire column inches of many articles, or being grossly inaccurate, for millions if not more people.
Jeff Hall, a reporter, and please remember, this is how he describes himself, didn't follow a consistent style in his treatment of different religions or families thereof, raising questions of his professionalism as a self-described reporter. The larger problem isn't what style was followed, when there are rational reasons for different approaches to religious citations. It's that he used mismatched styles in a way that suggests defamation of some religions, and preference for others. That raises questions about being a reporter, under standards of professional conduct, which conflict with the fact that by another definition, his employment as a journalist, he is a reporter regardless of how it's described. I truly suspect that his willingness to tackle a tricky and sensitive topic as he did reflects someone with the intelligence and ethics to at least be trying to act as a professional in his field.
Find More info -- HERE
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| WTF? Reverse That, Try Again... | Oct 1st. at 9:23:52 pm EDT
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Scottksmith (Downtown, Los Angeles, California) - Email Me
OK...
So say I went to my college and I errected a giant doll representing all Christians and then took names of all those people and with giant pins stuck them to the doll in a form of sympathetic magick... AKA Voodoo Doll?
Can you imagine the uproar even though it is not something I would consider doing.
Magickal ethics aside and plainly speaking, if the shoe was on the other foot those kids and their prayer leaders would be rolling in fits. I am sure it wouldn't stop there, how high would it go, to what televangelist, minister or right wing wahoo?
How do we educate?
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| Say What? | Oct 1st. at 7:10:59 pm EDT
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Shadow (Baton Rouge, Louisiana) - Email Me
I didn't even realize this sort of thing happened (I'm way behind the times) . The idea of "crucifying" non-Christian students is, as everyone else described, very un-Christian. It's like forming another social barrier to keep us apart. While I'm inclined to believe that the Chrisitans meant well when they did this (maybe this was a symbolic prayer for Jesus to help those who did not worship them) , it should have been carried out in a different way. Putting the names of non-Christians up for the public to see can give way to discrimination, whether it be minor or blatant. I won't hold this against the majority of Christians, because obviously this is not the case for all of them. But I do hope they, at the very least, apologize to the students who's names were on the cross and reflect upon what this action has done in the long term, both to the students who were singled out and for all other non-Christians who witnessed this.
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| Maybe Reporter Gets It? | Oct 1st. at 4:02:01 pm EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
I was one of the people who sent comments to this story's reporter, and the editor. I suggested that modern construction equipment could allow rapid production of crosses for 150 people interested in replicating crucifixion, or more recent burnings at the stake. Pneumatic tools can also shoot right through bone, though burnings in effigy might be enough to remind these "pole people" what's wrong with their abusive tactics.
Some mix of those violent histories is in fact what these kids are suggesting, instigated and led by off campus adults and organizations. Mr. Hall for the most part seems to get that, and may well be couching his words for good reason, in order to reach the audience which most needs to hear his message. Of course that makes him appear less than alert, but he'd likely lose much of the target audience if he were blunt and forthright in stating just how obnoxious these pole people are in their actions.
Are the pole people really christians — "and please remember, this is how they describe themselves". That smear of pagans is over the top, and easily avoided. However, it's a suitable question when some religions are corrupted and twisted to excuse fundamental violations of their own traditional doctrines, while engaging in genocides or other violence or its conspiratorial instigation. One could easily conclude that many modern pagans actually hold beliefs and practices closer to xtian traditions than do many so-called christians — "and please remember, this is how they describe themselves".
The paper cannot effectively publish an editorial suggesting a major chunk of its readership deserve to be treated as psychotics or violence prone criminals, even if true. It might have skipped the pagan smear, and considered whether "pole people" really do conduct student led campus events rather than events not legal unless treated as outside group RLUIPA based rentals, or if really student led, what hate speech and student harassment or intimidation policies might apply for those on campus as part of the school day.
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| The Pole | Oct 1st. at 10:27:08 am EDT
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Seer (Hudson, New Hampshire) - Email Me
I've heard of events like this and I thought of the flag pole. I get the sense from these gatherings that the subliminal message was if you weren't Christian, you weren't American. Very dangerous.
Seer
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| We're Supposed To Be Grateful, Or Something | Oct 1st. at 12:21:35 am EDT
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Quad Gemini (Bothell, Washington) - Email Me
While the writer may be less overtly harmful than those who nailed us to their stinking cross, he doesn't "get it" any more than they do. And because his bigotry is more subtle, it's more dangerous, in the long run. The danger is in the presumption that pagan and other non-christian kids (or adults) are just that way because they've never heard the "wonderful message."
What never dawns on these people is that we have chosen to be "other" precisely because we have heard and understood your message. For crying out loud, I was a freaking youth leader in the Baptist Church before they freaked me out, and then was just a step or two from becoming a seminarian in the Episcopal Church before I discovered paganism. And that's the path I've followed now for nearly two decades (in this lifetime) .
The thing which disgusts me MOST about christianity is the mandatory, on-all-the-time, in your face and in your ear proselytizing. Any religion that desparate to sell itself has fundamental problems.
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| Not Exactly As Welcoming A Gesture As It Seems | Sep 30th. at 5:18:14 pm EDT
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
I am glad that he wrote against it, but having them try to tell you about their "wonderful" message" is why many don't become xtian in the first place. And contributes to the vicious cycle that led to this SYATP event. Frankly, I would be highly upset and offended if I found my name hanging from a pole on school ground, even if the event wasn't sanctioned by the school in question. After all, it would mean that I would be pointed out as someone to bully because I didn't choose their "wonderful" way of life..
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| I'm Not Surprised | Sep 30th. at 3:29:44 pm EDT
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Dara (Port Orchard, Alaska) - Email Me
about this story. This sort of crap has been going on for well over 20 years in various parts of the country in or on pubic school grounds. Alot of people,from all walks of life, feel there's nothing they can do and so do nothing. It's good to know times they are a-changing. But, there IS some good news. I would wager that most of you are tax-paying citizens and so as such (parent or no) you have EVERY right to go to the school board and protest! You can even run for a place on the board. You also have the right to file a lawsuit on the grounds of unlawful assemply. Just a thought . Blessed Be
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| Nailing Names To A Cross... | Sep 30th. at 2:46:00 pm EDT
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Maré (Austin, Texas) - Email Me - Web
...is akin to a symbolic crucifixion. Looked at it from this perpspective, should make even the staunchest Christian shudder "BRRR!"
I wrote the author of this article, teling him he was stil missing some important points.
It's NOT OK to accost someone with conversion in mind. It's awkward, uncomfortable, and RUDE. Think people enjoy having their peace broken? Example: how often are you thrilled to see a JW shoving a Watchtower under your nose, and how often have you pretended you're not home when they call?
What business is anyone's religious beliefs, or lack of, to anyone else?
Does school propery cease being school property during certain hours? This logic is so convoluted, it's silly!
Didn't Jesus say something about praying/worshipping quietly? With this spectacle, that directive flies out the window.
Finally, the Christians are unwitting hypocrites, casting spells, and binding spells at that, WITCHCRAFT, WHICH THEY VOCIFEROUSLY CONDEMN, but can't see they themselves are praticing. I broke it down and expained how/why this is a spell--negative magick interfering and manipulating free will-- a thing not even God will do--imposing their will and desires and choices on me. If they can't (don't) respect me/my right to make my own choicess, the message is they presume to be greater and know better than God, who gave me free will. Delusions of godhood...arrogance at its worst.
I dont expect they'll believe me...the Trojans scoffed at Cassandra too.
BB
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| Church And State | Sep 30th. at 11:58:37 am EDT
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Celtic Lullaby (Jefferson, Maryland) - Email Me
I used to attend a church that had no building, so we all attended services in a local middle school. We had to get permission from the school and promise to clean up after ourselves, which included not leaving anything of a religious nature lying about the students would see when they returned to school on Monday. Likewise when the space was used for bible study on Wednesday night.
In order to get permission to hold the SYATP event, there probably had to be some form of written permission given and a smiliar agreement made about cleaniliness, etc.
As to whether or not it violates the separation of church and state for them to hold such an event outside of school hours, I'm not sure, but the nailing of names is a harmful act regardless, as it is a binding spell. Most witches won't even do a binding for ethical reasons, we certainly don't expect such a thing to be done by christian high school kids. Their intent was probably not malicious, but that really doesn't make it any less harmful. Spirtitual issues aside, it creates a stigma that affects the non-christian students whose names were placed on the cross. It singles them out as not being part of the majority and that can be a dangerous thing, as it far too often motivates the majority to shun, bully and antagonize those who don't fit into the 'group'.
To see how harmful this could be, we need only look at the case of Tempest Smith, a Wiccan middle school student who was harrassed by her christian peers so mercilessly she ended her life to escape from it. This wasn't due to the SYATP event, but it does clearly show that 'outing' a non-christian student to the christian majority gives said majority all the motivation they need to make the non-christian person's life miserable.
And for those who think the school wouldn't allow such a thing; they most certainly did. Bullying happens in our schools every day. Tempest and her mother received no help from the school whatsoever.
So how do you think the school that allowed the SYATP event to happen on their grounds will react to a complaint about christian bullying and harrassment of non-christian students?
It's certainly not a place I'd want my children to be.
If they want to get together and have a prayer meeting, that really harms no one, but perhaps they could meet at a public park next time rather than school grounds. Then the church/state issue won't be in question.
I also emailed the organizer of the event and suggested that the practice of nailing the names to the cross stop as well, explaining the spiritual and social harm that is being done. I haven't heard back and don't really expect a response since they think everything that goes on at the event is wonderful, but at least now they're aware that there's are stigma and binding issues to consider.
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| About The Culture In Oklahoma... | Sep 30th. at 11:16:54 am EDT
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Ivarr Brokksson (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma) - Email Me - Web
Since I haven't seen any fellow "Okies" chime in here, I'll put in my two bits.
The linked article is probably the most "positive" article (with regard to pagans) that I've ever seen published in this state, and I've lived here 33 years.
For any media person in OK to say anything negative about this sort of practice is shocking, at the least. This kind of thing happens in almost every school in the state.
While it's nice to say, "Someone should take them to court!", it isn't that simple. Even if you succeed in court, you've alienated your child from every other kid in school, and that will bring reprisals on them. Even worse, some teachers won't stop, and will even encourage, such reprisals, dismissing complaints as "Kids will be kids."
A good example of this happened while I was in Jr. High. Everyone involved with sports were members of the FCA. (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) I had a friend try out and get picked for the track team. He wasn't a christian, and refused to join the FCA. Over the next month or so, pressure was put on, there were calls to his parents (both christians) , and he was ultimately cut from the team because of his "refusal to cooperate" with the team. Add to this the problems he faced at home when he was "outed" to his parents by the track coach, and you would have seen a devastated child, with no recourse or solution to his problems. Incidentally, after twenty years of harrassment, he has given in to the pressure from his family and "converted" to their particularly rabid brand of christianity.
To say that "we" have to fight this kind of behaviour is easy, and simplistic. The reality on the ground in Oklahoma is that to have any affect on this behaviour, we have to effect a shift in the culture of the state, and that's not happening overnight.
(For a little perspective, OK is one of only two states which had NO counties voting for John Kerry in the last election. Even Texas had a few "blue" areas. The majority here also put Sen.Tom "Crazy" Coburn in office.)
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| Well, Burn My Broomstick | Sep 30th. at 9:05:45 am EDT
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Lady GoldenRaven (New Castle, Michigan) - Email Me
I have to agree with the poster who said-we need to stand up and fight this! My feelings? This is the Xtian version of sticking pins in voodoo dolls. Not to mention what ever happened to separation of church and state? We ARE losing ground and if we don't make a stand, I can see a New Age Burning Times happening. I am also sick to death of hearing about this crap-I had to live this nightmare of having Christ shoved down my throat for years. But, what really burns my broomstick is-I served in the US Navy, like many others, we served to PROTECT the constitution which says Freedom Of Religion!!! What part of Freedom do the Xtians NOT understand?
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| Religious Bigotry Is Never "Respectful"! | Sep 30th. at 8:37:21 am EDT
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Istari (Hazel Park, Michigan) - Email Me
"Had these young people taken aside their fellow students in a respectful manner and quietly, gently, privately tried to explain to them the wonderful message Christ brought to a troubled earth, nobody would have said anything."
Um, yes, some of us would indeed find that to be quite offensive and *would* say something!
I really don't care anymore if it is part of their religion to "proselytize" and they are just doing what their religion teaches. I don't want to hear it and I'm sure a captive audience at school does not want to hear it from their "peers" either!
Forcing/coercing/bullying your beliefs onto another is never respectful.
I'm sorry, but monotheists with their so-called "wonderful" message simply are the most closed-minded, intolerant, unloving, cruel people on the planet who seriously need to educate themselves!
Just try and "politely" force your proven to be fake, stolen-from-far-older-religions crap on me and see where it gets you! (It's amazing what you learn when you study ancient religion.)
Personally, I'd rather be thrown into the lake of fire than spend eternity with the likes of those people.
It is a far more pleasant alternative...
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| Question: | Sep 30th. at 7:35:23 am EDT
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Draken (Bronx, New York) - Email Me - Web
Why don't the non-Christian students do the following?
Pagan students: Tack up a Christian's name to a wooden pentacle.
Atheist students: Tack up a Christian's name to a Darwin fish.
Muslim students: Tack up a Christian's name to a verse from the Quran.
Jewish students: Tack up a Christian's name to a Star of David.
Discordian students: Tack up a Christian's name on an issue of Playboy and slip it on the bulletin board in a VERY conspicuious place (not that I'm endorsing anything too silly, here)
Goth students: Since the stereotype exists, Photoshop the head of a Christian student to the image of Marilyn Manson on his "Mechanical Animals" album and post it on the bulletin board.
This list is just stuff I came up with off the top of my head. :)
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| So... | Sep 30th. at 3:00:45 am EDT
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Rikadyn Cerise (Kalamazoo, Michigan) - Email Me
What would happen if one of the non Christian students had walked up and ripped their name off the cross and/or all the names off the cross? Most likely they'd get sent to the principles office.
My school had a morning prayer ring around the flag post like...once a year, but i only saw it happen once my entire time there.
Issues like these kinda make me wish I was still going to school, because without having a kid in school, can't really have much opinion in the matter
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