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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 20301
[Legal]
Date Posted:
12/31/2008
11:48:51 am EST
Wvox Stats
Views: 25,160
RSS: 13,588
Comments: 19
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Supreme Court Asked To Review Exorcism Case
Author: Alane S. Megna, AP Source: The Leaf Chronicle (TN)
Title: SUPREME COURT ASKED TO REVIEW EXORCISM CASE
  Lawyers for a former Colleyville woman who accused her fellow church members of abuse during a forced exorcism in 1996 when she was a teen have asked the U.S. Supreme Court to review her case.
Laura Schubert alleged that members of the Pleasant Glade Assembly of God held her down, bruising her wrists and leaving carpet burns on her back when she was 17 and then known as Laura Pearson.
This summer, the Texas Supreme Court threw out a jury award Schubert received for her injuries, reasoning that it unconstitutionally drew the court into religious matters.
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Community Thoughts: There are 19 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Regarding A "True Exorcism" | Jan 2nd. at 1:00:50 pm EST
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Maeven (Los Angeles, California) - Email Me
This is mostly directed to Jenna's post below. I am a Wiccan Priestess and have done a LOT of cases concerning hauntings and yes, some of them were demonic and a few included possession. If you've never witnessed it firsthand yourself, it's nearly impossible to believe. Usually in a case of real demonic possession there's a lot of objects flying around the room by the force you're dealing with, and weird scratching or animal noises in the room or coming from inside the walls. It's unmistakable to anyone present that it's not human nor of this world. Any sensitive present cannot miss that it's inhuman and extremely negative. It often talks, even sometimes in languages the one possessed does not know. The truth is, there ARE things that go bump in the night, and that exist that are not scientifically explained or logical, and that are self-aware. It's not a psychic person who's manifesting it--they usually are completely blacked out when it's happening, don't have the knowledge this being demonstrates, plus sometimes you can get a name out of the creature that you later find is traceable. Unless you yourself have been witness to such an event, are mentally stable and have a lot of witnesses also experiencing it (so you know you haven't cracked) , you would have no reason to believe it can be possible. Even then, it's still hard to get your head around. An experience like that destroys your previous concept of reality completely. It's an utterly terrifying experience.
I also believe the majority of people who claim possession are full of it. When it's real, it's the most terrifying type of assault on a person's psyche and family I can imagine. And that's what it is--an assault. People in that situation desperately need help, whether it's by a knowledgeable shaman or a priest. (The better it fits their belief system, the more likely to have success--so don't judge the religion, here. And many of these families aren't even particularly religious.) I think there are a WHOLE LOT of very disturbed individuals out there, both those who think they may be possessed but are truly mentally ill, and even more so by extremists who use it to brainwash and torture those who are different than them. That's why you should rule out medical and psychiatric causes first. Also, there needs to be a tremendous amount of documentation to a vast number of paranormal events. Poltergeist-type of stuff. The litmus test is to sneak a highly positively charged item (like Holy water, a blessed medallion, etc.) behind their head and neck area without their knowledge and see if they react. In essence, these beings are pure concentrations of negative energies like rage, hate or hopelessness. If they come close enough to something of a very positive vibration it actually hurts them and they usually react in a way which reveal themselves. If your person isn't aware of what you're doing and you get no reaction, then I'd say they are not possessed--at least not at that moment.
For a community who believes in magick and deities of old, I find it somewhat humorous that those beliefs can be limited to psychiatric disorders and archetypes. Every magickal leader of every culture in all of human history has been aware of negative beings like this and versed in how to deal with them. In our community, we even have ceremonialists, ghost hunters and demonologists who focus on dealing with beings like this! Christians don't hold a patent on these creatures. If you don't believe that things outside the mundane are possible, what are you doing in a magickal community?
I'm just saying, have an open mind to the possibility. Be logical in ruling out mundane causes and crazy extremists, and be aware that this is something that balanced people usually can't accept unless they've witnessed the experience firsthand themselves. This is another area where sometimes our larger community (not just our pagan one) needs our help. Whatever religion one belongs to, a shaman or a priest/ess sometimes needs to deal with this, too. The focus should be on helping the families in need regardless of the background of those involved, not on religious debates. Anyone who's helping is really on the same side.
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| S.C.O.T.U.S. Already Spoke On This Issue | Jan 2nd. at 9:03:47 am EST
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GreeneDragon (Palmdale, California) - Email Me
In 1879, the U.S. Supreme Court delivered an opinion on in reguards to the Mormon religious practice of polygamy. In Reynolds vs. the United States, the court declared that laws ". . . cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, but they may with practices."
Seems pretty clear to me.
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| ... | Jan 2nd. at 6:46:37 am EST
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Draken (Bronx, New York) - Email Me - Web
I should point out that, in addition to the FLDS fiasco, this is also home to the loonies who tried to get the military Wiccans barred from lrgally practicing Wicca on Ft. Hood 10 years ago. As if I needed ANOTHER reason to avoid a state that 1) still thinks of itself as an independent "republic" and 2) glorifies the defeat at the Alamo.
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| "A True Exorcism"? | Jan 1st. at 8:37:54 pm EST
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Jenna (Cary, North Carolina) - Email Me
This is simply a final note to my post below:
I am in no way endorsing the Catholic Church or exorcism in any manner. I believe (and medical science will support me) that these people who believe that they are demon possessed are simply suffering from depression or other mental issues, most of which can be treated and managed with medicine and/or therapy. I do not believe in any form of demonic possession, and would like to ask anyone of this post who does to truly examine their beliefs. If demonic possession, as reported by the Christians, is true, are you not demon possessed yourself by not worshipping what Christians believe to be the only true God? Has Satan seized control of your soul? Perhaps everyone on this site needs to head to their nearest Assembly of God "church" where even the janitor can perform an exorcism and have their demons driven from them.
Or perhaps we as a species should grow up. There are no monsters under the bed and no boogey men in the closet. It's time to admit that there are no demons as well. Read some Sagan and Dawkins and then pass it on to your nearest church. Hopefully out of a couple hundred people one will be open minded enough to actually read it.
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| The Difference Between The Catholics And The Fundi | Jan 1st. at 8:05:40 pm EST
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Jenna (Cary, North Carolina) - Email Me
Okay, let's put aside, for the moment, the Inquisition and the child molestations, when it comes to exorcism, the RCC is light years ahead of the Assembly of God cults and their like. Priests demand that any potential exorcism "patients" see a psychiatrist first for treatement before even considering the person for an exorcism. Also, any priest who engages in this activity has to undergo immense training both in the mental and physical health sciences. A RCC priest is probably trained as well as your average secular therapist . A RCC priest has trained for many years, knows the signs of mental illness, and more likely than not, the very small percentage of people whom the RCC deems to be truly "possessed" are treated with little more than a prayer and some holy water.
And the Assemby? Well, anybody (and I do mean anybody. They love to quote that passage where Jesus tells all of his followers that they all can drive out demons) can perform an "exorcism". Someone who was abused as a child and has an undiagnosed violent personality, someone who hidden sadistic temperment, someone who has no knowledge or even has disdain for science and medicine, all of these can hold people down on the floor for hours, tie them up, do whatever it takes to "drive the demons from them", and apparently the courts have given them their blessing. Listen to some of these want-a-be demon fighters speak. They will clearly tell you that they believe that the majority of the population to be possessed and they are only doing what it takes to "save their souls".
This is scary stuff, people. Anything that deviates from "traditional Christianity" and its followers can be viewed as demonic possession. If courts do not step in and tell these freaks that they will not tolerate violence done in the name of religion, tomorrow it might be you or your child that is being slammed into the floor for not bowing down to the cross.
Personal note: Although my mum was born and is currently a Catholic, she was, for a few years while struggling with a drug problem, a member of the Assembly of God cult. They had her throw out all of our books (save for the Bible, of course, but she had to get a Protestant version) , music, Disney toys, etc. They had her in Bible study four nights a week, and they convince her that she was a piece of filth because she was female. Because I hated her church and refused to attend after two "services", they convinced her that I was demon possessed (at nine years old!) and needed an exorcism. Thankfully, my father was a freethinking Jew and demanded that she either put an end to her nutty cult that would pounce on children or face divorce. I can only imagine what would had happened had my father been a fundie too. The woman in the law suit is a victim. If her parents were members, they probably knew what was going to happen and agreed with it for the "sake of her soul" and should be sued as well. The woman was 17 at the time. We don't allow 17 year olds to vote, in most states to get married, to drink, etc. So even if she consented, the fact that she was a child should make her consent invalid. Stand up to these freaks, people! You and your children could be next.
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| A Correctly Performed Exorcism Would Have | Jan 1st. at 7:55:18 pm EST
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Maeven (Los Angeles, California) - Email Me
prevented this. When done correctly, the victim gets thoroughly screened for medical causes AND psychiatric ones. If those get ruled out, then they perform an exorcism with an EMT there on site, along with numerous loved ones to act as both witnesses and to help the victim through a very terrible, traumatic and frightening situation. If this had been done, it would have prevented all of this. It would also help keep these folks in check in case the exorcism was unwarranted and they were just religious nuts.
It's difficult because in a true possession case, the demon often attacks the priest and witnesses and sometimes levitates to freak everyone out. Or they may do things to injure the body they're in just to be twisted and sometimes as a threat of harming the victim to make the exorcism stop. They usually have to be restrained to prevent any of these from happening. I firmly believe you should always have an EMT there because of this. There are just way too many things that could go wrong and people could be hurt, especially the victim.
What I find most interesting is that there is no mention in the article of this woman accusing the church members of a bogus exorcism. I see no mention here at least whether she claims she was never possessed in the first place. Bruised wrists and a carpet burn sounds really mild to me, especially if she was indeed possessed and what they did helped her. It sounds to me like she's trying to take advantage of the situation and land a large pile of free cash out of it. Heck, in my family with kids in martial arts, those injuries are really pretty common place. Wish we could get $300,000 for each one! If they really did help her and now she's doing this, I hate to think of her karmic consequences.
As for the courts, if she really was assaulted and injured and wasn't possessed and these people were just crazy, the courts should absolutely step in. If it's a crime, it shouldn't matter your religious beliefs or that it happened in a religious context. If they hide behind the religious curtain, anyone can commit a crime and make a religious matter out of it to escape punishment. If they were crazy and assaulted her for no real reason, they should be punished so other wingnuts out there think twice before running around attacking people they don't like or disagree with. Religious crazies running amok should be put in check. Genuine possession cases need to be handled with doctors, shrinks and medical assistance. At the very least, it just covers everyone's a**.
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| Isn't This The Same State . . . | Jan 1st. at 5:39:18 pm EST
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
. . .that snatched all the children away from the FLDS church members because they had reason to beleive that underage girls were being forced into marriage due to their religious beliefs? Where is their protection for religious belief there? Physical abuse is protected because they believe it is necessary to drive out the devils - but it is not ok to marry a 11 year old girl even though that is religious belief as well?
What kind of thinking drives these opposing conclusions? Certainly not an issue of religious separation of church & state. It may be that physical abuse of minors is considered less than sexual abuse of minors.
If you must draw a line between what is a religious practice and what is abuse - the physical or sexual abuse of minors (especially) or of others seems to be the place to draw that line. Keep your hands off me please.
If I am an adult, I can participate voluntarily in sex magic rites. If i am a minor, I cannot - and should not be allowed to see them . If I do not actively consent you cannot tie me up or physically assault me either and you must stop when I say so. If I am a minor, I cannot consent to physical abuse any more than sexual abuse and it is a crime for my parents to consent in my behalf.
Simple, children cannot be abused, whether in the name of religion or otherwise. Adults have more ability to consent but must not be abused against their will either.
If it is not abusive, it is religious and not the business of the state. If it is abusive then it is a crime and is the business of everybody.
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| What's Next? | Jan 1st. at 1:58:58 pm EST
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Avren (Desert, Oregon) - Email Me
It always scares me a little when I see articles like this. Zealots have no gray area, only black and white. What if the people in this congregation are members of law enforcement or worse? Zealots in power? Makes you shudder a bit.
I can hardly comprehend how they felt they could "exercise" this woman's "demons." Further more, lets not forget that she most likely signed up for it. If she was in this church any amount of time, she had to know what was coming. I'm not condoning it. However, I hope in the future she uses more caution. Not to mention a good psychologist.
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| A, The The Deeper Issue Is... | Jan 1st. at 12:34:13 pm EST
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karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin) - Email Me - Web
In legal cases based on exorcisms gone wrong, the pattern is that they want to go light on the perpetrators. Initially. Until pressure from the public pushes things into a sane direction.
I next quote just a portion of my "Autism as Wrong, Disease, Demonic" page, which has all the hyperlinks intact by the way.
***** Quoted Text From "Autism as Wrong, Disease, Demonic" Begins *****
"In 2007, a 14-year-old autistic boy was treated to an exorcism because his difference (autism) was seen as demonic possession. It turned violent and after 11 hours, his face was nearly twice the size. The perpetrator only faces misdemeanor charges.
See
[Web LINK] or [Web LINK]
This one happened just about 40 miles up the road from me not too many years ago.
Terry Cottrell, an eight-year-old autistic boy, was basically pressed to death (a form of torture, really!) via adults sitting on his chest as part of an exorcism -- the kid was autistic and that to them was "demonic possession."
Initially, consequences for the perpetrators looked as if they were going to be unfittingly light.
Some religions do exorcisms, some don't, and not all that do them are trained to do them. Some of the exorcism related injuries/deaths happen in home exorcisms and some, like Terry Cottrell's, happen in in-church exorcisms. Exorcisms in general continue to be on the rise yet it's important to know that not all Christians practice exorcism and many trained to do so don't "hurt the body to heal the soul." Additionally, some exorcism related deaths have been Voodoo exorcism related or just plain nuts."
***** Quoted Text From "Autism as Wrong, Disease, Demonic" Ends *****
Ah, but the deeper issue is that when harm had been done, "religious beliefs do not protect people from state laws prohibiting crimes such as assault and false imprisonment." To claim separation of church and state at that point is to sanction crimes to children and others.
Never!
That would enable abuse under the guise of religion!
In this recent case posted here on WV, the exorcism was forced and there were marks left on the girl's body and psyche.
You know what? It shouldn't take the more deadly cases to shake people from their stupor on the issues.
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| A Few Things Folks Choose To Ignore Here | Dec 31st. at 9:32:27 pm EST
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Aidan Odinson (Collingdale, Pennsylvania) - Email Me - Web
I've dealt with exorcism before, and more than one path does believe in and use exorcism. In the Roman Catholic Church, each diocese is required to have a diocesan exorcist who is a priest who is responsible for being his bishop's expert in such matters. Invariably, by the time an actual exorcism ritual is done, medical professionals are well involved.
In this case, my guess is that with the possible exception of the pastor, the entire thing was conducted by lay people whose training in the subject consisted of "what the spirit led them to do."
If their conduct is not the courts' business because it is protected religious practice, then perhaps the door might be opened to Wiccans who have found themselves in court for including youth in their activities. That has happened in the same jurisdictions in which Assemblies of God and Baptist churches were being allowed bus children to church or even baptisms without parental consent.
And where were this woman's parents in all this, BTW?
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| It's Amazing | Dec 31st. at 9:00:56 pm EST
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Ser (St. Paul Park, Minnesota) - Email Me
...what idiots are capable of in the name of religion. I have no great love of most Christians and their insane zeal to idolize their tortured man on a stick. I have seen their lies, their violence, and their perversion. It is only for the fact that they are unwitting apostates of their own teachings that I do not hate the religion itself, nor the people who legitimately listen to the lessons of their book.
Ultimately, I believe that the members of that congregation should be tried for assault and the parents for criminal neglect for their (at the time 17 year old) child. The church itself should have its tax exempt, protected status stripped away.
I hope this serves as a reminder to all of us what idiocy can do to damage the credibility of a religion so that such hokey claptrap can be dispensed of before it harms our own. I have seen what we do to ourselves now. Let us work to keep from sinking to further depths and strive toward nobler goals.
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| Is It Just Me... | Dec 31st. at 7:06:28 pm EST
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Faolan Iolachtir (Statesboro, Georgia) - Email Me
or does anyone else think it's funny how suddenly it's the Christians who are crying "separation of church and state"?
I mean, these ARE the same Christians who want to decide who can (and can't) benefit from civil marriage laws, what kinds of holiday displays can be put up on public land, what a woman may or may not decide regarding her own body, and who is or isn't fit for election to public office, all based solely upon their interpretation of millennia-old Middle Eastern tribal law, right? I guess when it's the church dictating policy to the state, that's OK. Apparently it's only when the church is held accountable to the state that we need that Constitutional "separation" thingy that they seem to find so irritating all the rest of the time.
Never mind, you're right. That isn't funny.
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| I HOPE.... | Dec 31st. at 7:02:19 pm EST
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Whitewolf (Schenectady, New York) - Email Me
that they DO review this case and that poor girl gets what is owed her. Religious violence CANNOT be tolerated - I hope they rake this "church over t he coals and bankrupt it. THEN, I hope they shut that so-called church down. If, as another poster said, it's not a church / state issue,, what's to stop another inquistion??
Love to all
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| ... | Dec 31st. at 6:58:29 pm EST
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Draken (Bronx, New York) - Email Me - Web
A Texas court threw out the award. That should say plenty right there.
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| Umm I See A Dangerous Precedent... | Dec 31st. at 4:57:48 pm EST
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Dennis Deal (Nazareth, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
Next person that accuses a Catholic Priest gets told sorry there but you know that whole church state thing...
I think Scotus will overturn this . It really doesn't want to revisit ever Catholic Priest pedo case...
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