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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 19723
[Schools/Ed]
Date Posted:
5/27/2008
2:22:57 pm EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 6,267
RSS: 11,996
Comments: 14
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Jesus Statue Prompts Controversy In Vt. High School
Author: The Associated Press Source: First Amendment Center
Title: JESUS STATUE PROMPTS CONTROVERSY IN VT. HIGH SCHOOL
Two students who put up a small statue of Jesus in a high school lobby area have been asked to take it down because it violates school policy.
The Mount Abraham Union High School students and their teacher say a principal’s request violates their right to free speech, but the head of the state’s American Civil Liberties Union says the school may have a point.
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Community Thoughts: There are 14 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Education | May 29th. at 1:15:04 pm EDT
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Mysteries Child (Garfield, Arkansas) - Email Me
Schools don't want to be fair, or to avoid one group trammeling upon the rights of others.
What they want, quite frankly, is to avoid controversy. Paraphrasing the principle of my daughter's school-- who blanched visibly when I said, "I'm Pagan. Is that going to be a problem?" and relaxed audibly when I said "I am not litigous and I don't have a problem with Christianity. I just want to know if I need to hide for the sake of K's safety."-- teachers and administrators are more than busy enough without having to spend time in court or fighting with the press.
They're only human. They're tired, they're overloaded, they're terrified of losing whatever funding they may have, or of losing their jobs because some higher-up lacking a clue of what it's like down in the trenches-errr-classrooms gets their panties in a bunch over parents' personal wedgies. I have a great deal of sympathy for them...
...and I still think the policy is wrong.
The policy teaches "Community, Identity, Stability." The policy teaches that the way to deal with disagreement is to avoid it, and the way to deal with difference is to ignore it, or worse.
It is quick, it is generally smooth...
...and it generally creates people who do not know how to function in a multicultural society.
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| These Kids Must Have Voted For Pedro... | May 29th. at 8:42:33 am EDT
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Pinky McFatfat, High Shamrock Shake (Dublin) (Northumberland, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
...after all, he did promise that if elected, everyone's dreams would come true and there would be Holy Santos in all the hallways.
Pinky
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| Broken Legal Standards | May 28th. at 4:17:32 pm EDT
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Terry (Irvington, Virginia) - Email Me
Both the student intent and school action impress me as meeting conflicting legal tests here, and do in fact illustrate a form of judicial arrogance and broken legal process.
The historic Greek deity in art in no way gives an impression the intent or effect is to promote a particular religion, as opposed to being merely an artistic or historic display. Therefore, no serious legal issues there.
A big honking Jeezus display in a school common area? In most cases, that would fail the same standards. In this case, it appears not to violate that law, but to draw out another judicial mess. Courts have ruled that for "strict scrutiny" protections of political speech to attach, as might be the case is this religious display intended as it in part appears based on the article's discussion of student intent, that there has to be a clear political meaning visible to those who see or hear that speech. That judicial standard fails badly when in our diverse culture, many people don't get the intent of many others, while the Constitution as interpreted to protect minorities necessarily needs to protect political grievance expression of those who are least understood by others. Also, since many people try to sidestep direct political confrontation and express serious ideas via humor or ambiguous speech to raise questions rather than directly asserting precise positions, that judicial standard demanding a clear message amounts to chilling prior restraint on popular forms of expression, amounting to speech content itself. That's all complicated when at the same time, the exact same outward expression as in this case could in most cases be illegal promotion of sectarian dogma, forcing legal review of content and intent as to political versus religious meanings, so long as the forum is one that appears to be school sponsored and where students are required to be an audience, and not incidental individual student expression.
That's all part of a larger mess courts have yet to handle well. It overlaps school policies of banning gang symbols but listing pagan amulets and icons even though xtian crosses are more common in gang symbols. It reflects on BongHitz4Jesus where the Supreme Court perpetrated fraud by its non-inclusion of many issues of fact from the lower court record, such that it made that case about drug policies versus nonsensical political opinions, rather than deal with jurisdiction limits on schools and when government officials move from legitimate exercise of authority to arrogant, psychotic criminals perpetrating assault and vandalism. It overlaps the screwy treatment of "public nudity", where unlike "pornography" SCOTUS refused to legally define in 1964 due to no neutral or not legally "vague" definition being possible, the court has accepted religiously prejudiced definitions of "nudity" and "indecency" as if valid basis for what amounts to discriminatory laws, subject only to narrow protections of political speech rights in some but not other cases based on how easily judges understand other elements of speech content. In those cases, the courts should recognize fundamental religious issues when restrictions are based on far from neutral intent and effect, and not need to consider usually suppressed Free Exercise issues or inconsistent treatment of parallel 1st Amendment religion and speech protections standards.
In this particular school case, the students might have done better to use their statue to joke about Unitarians. What message would the same display have, with a big question mark below it, or hanging from the ceiling above?
How would the school have reacted had the students expressly stated that their intent was not to promote religion, as it might be for others erecting the same display, but that what it meant to them was private (just as specific meanings for a Pentacle) , and intended to raise questions about inconsistent treatment of speech as a political and not overtly religious statement? Should such student speech be treated differently if presented by students who prepare a legalistic and ideological statement for officials, versus those who have the same underlying ideas but aren't skilled at dancing that game? I don't see how Constitutional standards can be upheld, if elite treatment is given only to those with legal training, formal or otherwise.
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| ... | May 28th. at 11:34:13 am EDT
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Ellen (East Hartford, Connecticut) - Email Me
If this was a statement that the student was making, why didn't he say so when he was asked by his principle. By not saying that this was part of an assignment, he was either 1. lying to the principle or 2. breaking school policy which doesn't restrict religious expression but it specifies that it must fit acedemic purposes. Seeing that it's a school that's not too much to ask. I bet she'd have asked for a Smiley Face statue be removed for the same reason. It doesn't fit the rules in the policy that "student presentations and displays to exhibit academic work or to educate or inform the community"
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| (none) | May 28th. at 3:53:47 am EDT
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Moonlight Wolf (Bradford, England) - Email Me
I think the students have a point with this. If there is a mural with the Greek God Apollo then there is no problem with a statue of Jesus, plus the students did say that they were trying to make a point (Especially about the Pledge of Allegiance) rather than expressing any religious affiliation.
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| Most Of These Challenges | May 28th. at 12:36:48 am EDT
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Rubyglare (Sacramento, California) - Email Me
are fomented in Christian pulpits-period. Mostly teens are being encouraged & walked thru how to start such 'confrontations', mostly under false claims of religious 'freedom'. Carry a "pocket altar", why so insecure, why the endless manufactured confrontations? I miss the Christianity of my childhood, where Bible School was held in my church & was fun.
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| No Problem!! | May 27th. at 6:40:23 pm EDT
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Dancingdog (Bend, Oregon) - Email Me
I have no problem with this as long as there is a statue of the creator of all things the Most Worshipfull Flying Spaghetti Monster right next to It. May you all be touched by his noodley appendages and you lives forever changed. Beer and Pirates without end...Ramen
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| As Quoted In The Article: | May 27th. at 3:36:49 pm EDT
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Raven (Winter Park, Florida) - Email Me
“On the one hand, individuals have an individual right of free religious expression. On the other hand, the government — which includes schools — can appear to be endorsing one religion or another. And the problem here, I think, is that to many people, it would appear the school may be endorsing a religion by allowing the statue to be where it is.”
Absolutely. Even the addition of other deities or religious symbols would be in violation of not only school rules, but first amendment rights. There's a time and a place for religious iconography, and that's at home or at one's place of worship, not a public school or other public institution.
Not that I'd dislike it if they did allow images of other faiths. :) Rather, I think it'd be kind of fun. But when offense comes in to play (even with a lot of displays, it's going to light a fire under someone) , and especially at a school, where things like that can disrupt everyone, then it shouldn't even be considered.
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| Equal Representation | May 27th. at 2:52:58 pm EDT
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Ruby Tuesday (Staten Island, New York) - Email Me
Here's my opinion: let the kids keep the statue up. It doesn't seem to be offending anyone: as a matter of fact, it seems to be making more people happy than anything else. However, the school should put of statues of deities from other religions as well. If the kids are that concerned about the first amendment, then they won't have any issue with that, and everybody else will be happy, as well.
I feel that as long as everyone is represented equally, and as long as no one religion is lauded over others, then having the statue (s) there shouldn't be a problem.
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