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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 20287
[Civil]
Date Posted:
12/22/2008
12:23:45 pm EST
Wvox Stats
Views: 7,868
RSS: 16,707
Comments: 11
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Even In December, A Right For One Remains A Right For All
Author: Charles C. Haynes Source: First Amendment Center Online
Title: EVEN IN DECEMBER, A RIGHT FOR ONE REMAINS A RIGHT FOR ALL
Just when I thought the Christmas wars couldn’t get more ridiculous or hostile, along comes the uproar over dueling holiday displays in the rotunda of Washington’s state Capitol.
First a holiday tree, then a menorah, followed by a crèche — and now a “winter solstice” placard declaring all of the above to be hokum.
The red-and-green solstice sign, placed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, describes religion as “myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.” Happy holidays to you, too.
The in-your-face display proved too much for the hundreds of Washingtonians who rallied to protest the state’s decision to give the anti-religion group space alongside the Nativity. After TV commentator Bill O’Reilly, the self-appointed defender of all things Christmas, weighed in, the brouhaha went national.
But truth be told, Bill, the governor has no choice under the First Amendment.
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Community Thoughts: There are 11 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| The Sign Stays | Dec 24th. at 3:37:56 am EST
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R. Cicero (Seattle, Washington) - Email Me
I'm actually quite proud of our governor for not caving in. She used to be our attorney general, you see. Probably took her all of five seconds to figure it out. Of course she had to emphasize that she was christian (oh yeah, sure) and that the message offended her too. What can I say? You've got to put a feed bag on the animals to keep the farm running. But at the end of the day, this very striking and confrontational message from my atheist comrades STAYS, no matter how much O'Reilly and all the dimwitted cultists complain. And that makes this a very happy holiday season for me and many others, for the first time in years.
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| Plenty Of Places To Preen... | Dec 23rd. at 5:10:09 pm EST
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
I agree with many of the freethinkers beliefs, but not surely, their methods in display. I agree with another poster that overt religious displays in government buildings is not okay as there is a public forum for their displays outside. (wreaths, candy canes, snowmen, and bunting and even a tree may be acceptable as these could be considered non denominational)
To paraphrase Scrooge, "Are there no churches? No synagogues? No prayer houses? No front yards enough?"
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| Public Display And Official Endorsement | Dec 23rd. at 4:27:44 pm EST
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Wild Huntsman (Toronto, Ontario) - Email Me
There is a difference between freedom to worship in public and public endorsement of worship.
There is a strong need for some people to say 'this is normal' and so have everyone be, or pretend to be, just like them. There is a valid need for this, without normative behaviours and standards, we cannot have civil society, and a large part of those normative behaviours has typically been the common celebration of religious beliefs. Typically, everyone in a tribe all worshiped the same deity. Rome and other great empires absorbed other tribes, but then had to make accommodation. But this was one tribe ruling another and so Roman gods were still part of Roman daily life: for example, while other sects and Gods were fully tolerated, they were never venerated in the Senate.
A few persecuted religious believers fled to a new colony, but after their own intolerance spun out of control, and, as transplanted Europeans remembering the horrific religious wars in France and Germany during the 15th, 16th, and 17th Centuries, the framers of the Constitution decided to overtly protect everyone's right to worship. They made a fundamental error when they assumed that everyone would understand the tacit agreement that worship is supposed to be a basically private affair, even if it's publicly obvious, like a priest wearing his collar, or a Jew, or an Amish farmer wearing special dress.
That is why displays of religious nature must be permitted in the public square, but not promoted within government buildings. The difference is that is the line between tolerating different beliefs and endorsing them.
Because of a need to tolerate other beliefs, these atheists have crossed a line, because it is one thing to say "I don't believe in that because I think it's bunk" and saying "It's bunk and you are stupid or wrong to believe in it." I'm neither. If their point was that there ought to be no public displays in government buildings and offices, with possible exceptions in cubicles and such, then they made it in the most insulting and ignorant way possible. And I'd agree with that goal, but despise their behaviour.
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| Where Moderation Fails | Dec 23rd. at 3:40:18 am EST
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R. Cicero (Seattle, Washington) - Email Me
And I quote:
"And I can’t grasp why freethinkers think they advance their cause by denigrating religious faith."
Can't grasp that, huh. I'll give you a minute.
Let's see, perfectly rational, honest and reasonable people are supposed to carefully nurture, respect and applaud utter nonsense and rank superstition?
I think the meek have already inherited the earth. Pigs are flying.
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| Festivus? | Dec 22nd. at 11:48:41 pm EST
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Ahr-Ohn (Bridgeport, Connecticut) - Email Me
If, as given in article, the Atheist Sign was actively attacking, I think there's room to include Exclusion, for the asking. "This sign intentionally left blank, by the Freedom From Religion Foundation," would fit the season better.
Yes, Atheists can be arrogant, and the Ten Planks of the Humanist Manifesto were built on twelve fundamental errors, they can't even count.
"Now other enterprising citizens want in on the holiday fun. One fellow has requested space for a “Festivus” pole, celebrating a fictional holiday created on the sitcom “Seinfeld.” Someone else wants a display honoring the Flying Spaghetti Monster."
FSM is a theology, rather than a pantheon or celebratory trad, but the Seinfeld suggestion has some merit. The Germans have a holiday, to commemorate a saint, and she was sainted for having a vision, that the country needed a holiday, about that time of year.
Now, let's put the Holy back into Holiday. This Christmas, think of what Santa Claus would like, and help a child enjoy the Winter. If you're into FSM, make it with Meat-Balls.
Arawn
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| This May Not Be The Place But | Dec 22nd. at 11:03:59 pm EST
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RowanHawk (Scottsburg, Indiana) - Email Me
Here is an email that I sent to Religion and Ethics weekly. I watch the show often and they never mention Pagans, they cover every other faith but not ours. So I sent this:
Dear Kevin,
I enjoy the show very much, I like to learn about other faiths and the meaning behind the various customs and holidays. I believe that Religion and Ethics should be shown in schools in an attempt to open children up to various faiths. I beleive this would help bring tolerance later in life. As I stated earlier I do enjoy the show but I have noticed an ommision, very little is every said about Paganism or Wicca. I watched last nights show and thought for sure there would be something mentioned about the Winter Solistice, alas, there was no mention. I was working so perhaps there was a simple few words mentioned that I may have missed.
When one considers that many stats show that Wicca is the fastest growing religion in the states and the United Kingdom, I would think this would be something that people would like to hear about. I can see no reason why Wicca would be left out. Even when I searched for Wicca at the website I got no results. Is there something going on behind the scenes that is preventing Wiccan news from being broadcast?
I know that our faith is one that is clouded by misconceptions, many think we actually worship the Christian devil. A silly statement that is akin to claiming a Christian would worship a hindu Deity. It simply doesn't make sense. However we have little help from the media to clear up some of these misconceptions. This is where you could help. I would think that a program that calls itself Religion and Ethics and claims to be secular would have no problem with covering all religions and treating said religions in a fair way. Should you be in need of story ideas well I would be happy to provide you with several.
There is several court battles going on right now in which parents have lost there children simply because they are Pagan or Wiccan. There is a court battle going on in Australia where a women was fired from her job based only on the fact that she is Wiccan. There is the story of a twelve year old girl who chose to be Wiccan and was so bullied and teased that she took her own life. Recently there was a woman and her friend walking out of the woman's home when they were attacked by an angry mob of Christians and beaten so badly they had to be hospitalized. Their crime? One of the women was Wiccan.
I often turn to public broadcasting and radio as I believe that they are more fair and balanced but it seems that you have little desire to speak about a religion that many good and decent people follow.
I am a writer, though you wouldn't know that from this email, I would be happy to write a few segments for the show that are Earth Religious in nature should you be so inclined. Assuming of course there is no bias against Wicca!
Thank You,
John Thomas West
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| Many Levels... | Dec 22nd. at 10:21:58 pm EST
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Lady GoldenRaven (New Castle, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
to this story. All here have valid points. Just as there are many levels to this story from mundane to spiritual, there are opinions.
My thoughts:
Jesus Christ hiomself would be put upon a funeral pyre if he were to return to earth this day. The Xtains would call hiim a false prophet. They are so confused as to the truth, they wouldn't recognize it if it slapped them in the face.
His true ways are so close to paganism--go among others and heal them. take care of the planet and love one another--they would surely accuse him of wytchcraft.
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| Valid Points Made | Dec 22nd. at 8:30:23 pm EST
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Aritimi Morgana (RotterdamJct/Schdy/Scotia, New York) - Email Me
It's about which faith group has the biggest sign and the loudest declaration. The atheist sign did annoy me, believe it or not. I have found some atheists (not to mention some pagans and Christians) to be arrogant in the extreme, brandishing their ideas like a sledgehammer rather than have a sedate, thoughtful discussion on topics such as faith or the lack of faith.
As much as it doesn't seem like it, this is a free country and all have the right to their point of view. It doesn't matter who starts shouting from their podium: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, and yes, even us Pagans, that they are the one faith to be mandated in this country, it's out of line.
We as pagans are looking for acceptance in this country. Looking for Chrsitian Inquisitors behind every door and under every rock, sniffing for the slightest hint of persecution doesn't do us an ounce of good. We end up turning ourselves into the fundie 'martyrs' who deliberately set themselves up for discrimination in order to promote their cause. This whole 'War of Christmas' deal is just that; some rabid fundies making a mockery of Christmas in order to get their religion preferred status. But I digress.
We need to stop picking fights with the fundies; they're already doing a bang-up job making fools out of themselves. Quit with the rampant paranoia about how all Christians want to take over the world and treat one another with respect. Isn't that a custom that should be shared through the holidays?
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| ... | Dec 22nd. at 5:03:36 pm EST
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Draken (Bronx, New York) - Email Me - Web
I'm just tired of the xians trying to ram their lies down my throat.
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| Good Article | Dec 22nd. at 4:15:10 pm EST
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WitchPoet (Claremont, California) - Email Me - Web
Just this; the wording on the Atheist sign is divisive and demeaning and designed to cause offense. Frankly, as one well versed in science and metaphysics I can say that their statement is a statement of FAITH not reason!!
Coulnd't they just say Happy Solstice from the secular humnaists and leave it at that?
Does the creche have a plaque declaring Jesus the only way? Does the menorah have a post-it declaring ONLY the Jews as chosen of God? Deal with it people, you hard-core Atheists are a FAITH GROUP.
The only intellecually honest position to take as a non-religious person is Agnosticism!!!!
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| It's Not Just Christmas.... | Dec 22nd. at 1:05:39 pm EST
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
The reason for some religious groups trying to put their displays on Public grounds is not about free speech or religious rights as much as it is a ploy for political power to force the government not merely to ackowledge their right, but to endorse them, and only them, as official.
That is the reason for all the carping and complaining and outright hostility. They want to be the only ones up there, and to share space with another is anathema. It is the same thing with all ten commandments monuments and public crosses and religious auto vanity plates at any other time of the year.
The reason the rest demand the same, is to keep from being excluded and in the future-outlawed or declared criminal...
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