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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 20265
[Civil]
Date Posted:
12/12/2008
5:52:30 pm EST
Wvox Stats
Views: 3,681
RSS: 13,541
Comments: 16
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Amish: Religion Trumps Building Codes
Author: Associated Press Source: WBAY, ABC 2 (WI)
Title: AMISH: RELIGION TRUMPS BUILDING CODES
Daniel Borntreger's Jackson County home looks like hundreds of other Wisconsin farmhouses. But it could cost him thousands of dollars in fines. The Amish farmer built it without a permit.
Borntreger's case is 1 of at least 18 legal actions brought against Amish in Wisconsin and upstate New York over the past year and a half for building without the proper permits.
The Amish say their commitment to live apart from the world trumps government regulations. Building officials say the Amish need to follow the law like everyone else.
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Community Thoughts: There are 16 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Quality | Dec 15th. at 8:38:44 pm EST
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Gray (Mebane, North Carolina) - Email Me
most likely, i would bet, that a house built by an amish is probably better than ninety nine percent of the houses i've seen built today. i saw a guy pay one million dollars on his house to live in an exclusive neighborhood, the guy who built it was licensed, and the house started to fall apart immediately. he's yet to get compensation. but as always, it's difficult if not impossible to deal with a government. they should simply issue a permit where observation of building practices are noted by a designated person. in laymans terms, we have an inspector who comes out to inspect the house. if it is built well enough, it passes. the inspectors are also notorious for taking bribes to pass house inspections. where i live you can build on your own property as long as you don't intend to sell it. but if you do, they keep the right to condemn un safe buildings before the sale. i would most likely live in a house that i knew was built by an amish.
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| I'd Live In It! | Dec 15th. at 12:07:43 pm EST
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Snoozepossum (Mooresville, North Carolina) - Email Me - Web
Go Amish!
I'd happily live in an Amish-built structure (although I'd cheat and customize a bit) and not worry for one minute about how sound it was.
As a remodeler and cable/phone installer, I've seen plenty of inspector approved, code adhering houses that were problem-riddled garbage, and any good contractor should be ashamed of them.
What the building code authority needs to do is flip it around; let the Amish write addendum to the code for Amish homes, and then let them supervise inspections on regular houses.
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| Good For The Amish! | Dec 15th. at 9:32:57 am EST
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John the Alchemist (Francestown, New Hampshire) - Email Me
Anyone with the fortitude to pick up a hammer and build a house on his own property should be allowed to do so without government interference. In my town there are many houses dating from the colonial era that are still standing and will be long after most of today's 'code-built' houses have turned to dust. These houses were all built by local farmers and tradesmen without government supervision.
In my own case, when I built my house there was no building code in my town. There is now and I would undoubtedly be in violation of it were I to attempt to build my present house today. The irony here is that, in the fourth day of a power outage that promises to last days longer, my house is comfy and warm. The result of my building it as a passive solar superinsulated house with a woodstove for backup and no conventional heating system (in violation of code) . Many of my neighbors are sitting in emergency shelters today because their 'code-built' houses quickly become unliveable without electricity.
The public safety argument is a canard except as it applies to large scale developers. Individuals are perfectly capable of building good, safe houses their own way without government interference. And if they're willing to take whatever risks are involved in living in them, so be it! All the government does here is calcify the building process and make it more expensive and difficult for the individual. More power to the Amish!
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| Mostly The Amish Build Their Own Houses | Dec 15th. at 7:14:08 am EST
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
They build their own churches and barns as well, usually the owner and friends gather and build the structure to their tried methods. These homes are not part of a development for others to buy or for any other commercial development project. They are owner built and occupied, whether business or residence. Their work is not usually substandard ( by their standards) but may not come up to code due to not using electricity or piped water or some such thing. perhaps the city could make building codes that cover amish built properties that are later sold - having to come up to city standards or have the construction inspected before the sale but not have to have the permits and meet all the codes if it is to be owner occupied.
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| Whatever | Dec 14th. at 1:11:07 am EST
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Feathercloak (Grand Junction, Colorado) - Email Me
The Amish have been building big, strong, sturdy homes for 200 years. I seriously doubt that their houses are going to crumble to the ground anytime soon. In fact, I bet most of them are built better than many of the homes here in the city. I think that this is really about folks not liking their way of life instead of about building permits.
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| Actually | Dec 13th. at 7:40:23 pm EST
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Gwenhyfar (Windsor, Ontario) - Email Me
In Essex County Ontario you can have your children removed by CPS from a house that doesn't have working electricity or plumbing. An acquantance of mine was told by them that they didn't have any other problem with her but if the electricity wasn't installed in the upper level within a certain timeframe they would remove the kids.
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| Just Because | Dec 13th. at 7:37:25 pm EST
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Murigen (Graham, Washington) - Email Me
Just because someone doesn't have a building permit doesn't mean they didn't follow codes or even build better than code. It just means the county/city didn't get their hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in fees. And the building wasn't held up weeks if not months waiting on inspectors and approvals. Before someone says the inspections are necessary and there to protect people, not all inspectors are trained enough or honest, so you could still end up with a substandard dwelling. Not to mention building codes don't always make any sense nor make a building any safer.
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| I'm All For The Rule Of Law, | Dec 13th. at 5:32:30 pm EST
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Badass Bard (Atlanta, Georgia) - Email Me - Web
but there is a fine line to walk here. Some religious acts do need to be exempt from the law while others must be subject to it.
If there were not such an exemption, local governments could pass ordinances that prevent non-mainstream communities from practicing their faith. While I can't imagine what, precisely, is at odds in the case of the Amish buildings but I can think of a number of such ordinances that might make practicing Paganism decidedly difficult.
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| Am Wondering. | Dec 13th. at 2:43:34 pm EST
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Silver Faery (Hays, Kansas) - Email Me
It doesn't list the codes that they violated. I admire the Amish Community in general, having lived near some off and on through my life. But I do know they are allowed to use a car now in situations such as a baby on the way...and no other driver is available. They can use electiricty in their stores and businesses. Some even allow their kids to use roller-blades and other things approved. But not all are like that.
If the town is concerned with safty, there is other people other then the Amish to take into consideration. Building permits and codes make the buildings safe for animals and humans! No one should be above that, ever.
Silver Faery
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| If They Don't Want To Live By The Rules... | Dec 13th. at 12:12:48 pm EST
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Lori Dake (Chicago, Illinois) - Email Me - Web
in the community they reside, they should reside where the rules fit their lifestyle. I own property in west central Illinois where the rules would suit them just fine! My yearly total property tax for 7+ acres of wooded land is less than what I would spend on taking the herd out to a semi-fancy dinner. No kidding! (I think last year was $150, and that's higher than residents, since I don't live there.)
No building permits or codes whatsoever, homeschooling is a breeze compared to many states, and yes, if I want to tap onto the grid, I can easily do so, but it's not necessary. Also, since my property is right on a county road, it's the first to get shoveled in winter. I found that out when I bought the property during a terrible winter ice storm two years ago! Oh, and the pittance I paid for all that beautiful land...
>$20k. We found it on eBay.
With the market the way it is, one would think the price would have gone drastically down, but in actuality, my property value doubled, and there's more good paying jobs available than there are people to take them. (That's due to the kids going off to college and not returning, preferring to move to the cities.) For those whose mouths are watering at the thought of such an utopia, look into Rushville, IL. An hour between Springfield and Peoria, two hours from St Louis.
I heard there is an Amish community nearby, which doesn't surprise me at all. What does surprise me is when I read articles like this, of why the communities don't flourish. Seriously, when your way of living is at stake, why put up with the BS when you don't have to? The only real rule is during hunting season, you have to wear orange, even to pick up the mail at the end of your driveway. I must admit I abhor that color, but taking everything else into consideration, I'd deal with the tackiness. Besides, I don't like getting shot too much ;)
Oh and yes, once we are able, we will be moving down there ourselves. The property technically has a home on it, a double wide in fact, but it's not up to any true living standard. Just need to get squared away before leaving this overly expensive, ridiculously corrupt city. I will miss the culture, my friends and the restaurants, but it's a sacrifice I think is more than worth it.
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| A Way To Anarchy? | Dec 13th. at 10:34:06 am EST
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
Another argument could also be that if they are allowed to use religion to keep from following certain state edicts then the floodgates would open for all others to not need to follow the laws since it is against their religion.
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| Article Is Light On Facts | Dec 13th. at 9:24:43 am EST
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Lora (Leominster, Massachusetts) - Email Me
Which aspect of the building code are they violating?
Lack of permits? There's bugger-all in their religion that forbids them from getting a permit or a general contractor's license. In PA and Ohio you can hire an Amish contractor to build whatever you like, and they have the contractor's license, insurance, bonded, etc.
Poor construction practices? There's nothing in their religion that says where floor joists are supposed to be placed or the methods for building a load-bearing wall. All states permit the old-fashioned construction methods of post-and-beam and plaster vs. drywall.
I seriously doubt that there are building codes that say all structures must have electricity and plumbing, but I suppose it is within the realm of possibility. Still, I know there are plenty of structures intended for human habitation which do NOT have electricity or plumbing--camping cabins for vacations, hunting, ice fishing cabins and so forth often don't have utilities. Surely they could get an exemption on those grounds.
It also doesn't say exactly what they are building. There may well be laws about how many animals you can house per square foot of barn space for certain types of livestock, and those rules are for hygiene--but there's also nothing in their religion that tells them a barn must be built a certain way.
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| I Seem To Remember | Dec 13th. at 8:11:33 am EST
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Dennis Deal (Nazareth, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
a passage that went something like this... "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and render unto god what is gods.." or something like that.. hmmm I wonder if the gentile people simply forgot that? Or maybe they have different take on that passage than the "english" do....
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| Religion Trumps LAW?!!?? | Dec 13th. at 1:02:59 am EST
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nasionnaich (Stanchfield, Minnesota) - Email Me
So, some of the Amish folks in the U.S.A. think that their religion is more important than the Rule of Law in the Nation they call "home"? Ok, then here's an idea for them to mull over...
Let' em build their houses, barns, sheds, etc., etc., all without permits. But when -- not '"if" -- they need help from the Law, they're on their own. They don't want to live according to the Rule of Law in the U.S.A., they don't get to benefit from it.
When their buildings burn down and the ol' "bucket brigade" just ain't enough put out the fire, let it burn. No volunteer fire department response for them, since they refuse to play by the rules anyway. Ok, the "first responders" should go in and rescue anyone who needs rescuing, but that's it -- no saving the buildings. I'm not a heartless jerk. But if the fools want to build 'em without permits, and against "code", they don't need to benefit from modern fire-fighting to save their buildings, either.
Living "simple" is fine and great, but when it gets in the way of the Rule of Law and the actual safety of others -- well, that's a whole 'nuther thing entirely. If those Amish folks really want to live completely according to their religion, with no regard to the safety of everyone they sell their products to, or even the concerns of their non-Amish neighbors (if my neighbor's house burns, mine is in also in danger - and if it collapses while I am visiting, I get hurt or killed) , maybe they should just put all their money in one huge pile and purchase an island somewhere...and start their own country.
---nasionnaich
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| Walking The Walk | Dec 12th. at 11:23:49 pm EST
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Keyra (Plano, Texas) - Email Me
I used to live in Pennsylvania. I thoroughly enjoyed the area as though it is modern for the most part, it still has living ties to much simpler times. Having driven through the Lancaster area, I have encountered the occasional Amish buggy being pulled by a horse alongside the road.
Though I do not share their beliefs, and they would most assuredly deem mine to be "of the devil", I admire their fortitude and steadfastness concerning not only their religious pursuits, but their way of life itself.
In an era of text messaging, digital conversion, CGI animation and computerized EVERYTHING, these people have not abandoned such, but have rather refused to embrace the fast-paced, hectic lifestyle that has grown out of mankind's quest for "progress".
They begrudgingly use electricity, but only in a very few scant instances where it is required by law if they wish to produce things that they sell to the public. The same holds true for plumbing and every other modern contrivance - things that today's generation takes so much for granted that when the power goes out, people literally start dropping dead!
Theirs is an echo of a time 200-300 years in our past - a time when we helped out our fellow neighbor without expecting anything in return and even without asking or being asked - a true community spirit that is all but lost in the "modern" world. In the past, we relied upon the earth to sustain us (while giving back to the earth so that it would continue to do so) , and these people do the same. Now, granted, their view of women is as second to men whose purpose is that of cooking, cleaning and procreation with no purpose whatsoever in leadership roles of any sort, but again this was the same view held 200-300 years ago and is in line with Puritanical Christian philosophy. I am not necessarily advocating such a view, merely explaining such and linking it to the view held in the past.
So many people declare the Amish to be clinging to a bygone era, but I still must admire them. They are walking the walk that their beliefs entail. We don't see that in today's faiths. Instead, we see perversion and corruption, even within the Pagan faiths.
Would that there was a Pagan community here in the United States with such fortitude and perseverance as the Amish have shown. I would gladly become a part of such if it were out there (just as long as I still get to eat tacos and play World of Warcraft on occasion) .
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