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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 6606
[Civil]
Date Posted:
3/22/2003
10:54:53 am EST
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Comments: 10
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Patriotism, Dissent Not Necessarily Inconsistent
Author: Matthew Van Dusen Source: The Casper Star-Tribune (WY)
Title: PATRIOTISM, DISSENT NOT NECESSARILY INCONSISTENT
The message from top Bush administration officials Ari Fleischer and Donald Rumsfeld and many letter writers to the Star-Tribune is, "If you can't say something nice about the war, don't say anything about the war at all."
At the commencement of bombing Wednesday night, some Casperites even talked casually about charging protesters with sedition.
Wyoming attorneys, however, disagree. The freedom of speech cannot be trumped by other concerns, they said.
"The Constitution was born in the bowels of war," said Laramie attorney and occasional Star-Tribune columnist Tim Newcomb. "The framers could have made a wartime exception if they had intended, but the founding generation made no such exception. Therefore, they obviously wanted and believed in spirited debate."
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Community Thoughts: There are 10 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Protesters And Dissenters "have A Duty To Spe | Mar 24th. at 3:51:19 pm EST |
by Lonegnome (Oregon) - wc_xemail
Maybe my way of thinking is just a little twisted, but I agree with that statement. I think most of the the protesters can be viewed as wanting our military home, just as many of the war supporters do. Albeit for vastly different moral and ethical reasons.
I also think that the war supporters have a duty to rally behind the war, to show their support. I think that both groups doing so is a way to show support for our troops. The protesters by protesting are inferring that they wish our troops well in the fact if the troops weren't there their lives wouldn't be in jeopardy. They would be safely at home with their loved ones, where everyone deserves to be.
The supporters are, in a way, saying "Good job" or "Way to go".
So please protest and in your own way wish our troops well. or if you're inclined to support them.
Even the nutral minded people should be nuetral, we do need glue to hold things together.
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| Addendum | Mar 24th. at 10:28:28 am EST |
by HepCat (Canada) - wc_xemail
Long winded aren't I?
Bad at proofreading too.
I meant to say "with our hydro plants, " and Kalle Lasn's book is entitled Culture Jam.
And I expect to get a novel published?!
Oh, as I'm here, here's a little food for thought:
"There are two ways of avoiding war: One is to satisfy everyone's desire, the other, to content onesself with the good."
-Unto Tahinen
"The cold war: A war between two kinds of lip service."
-Jack Kerouac
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| Enrichment? | Mar 24th. at 10:22:23 am EST |
by HepCat (Whitby, ON, CAN) - wc_xemail
I have a very bad habit of responding to articles well after they are cold. As like as not, very few people will read this post, but I feel the need to make it anyway.
I am a little bothered by Mr. Jones' comment on the enrichment of Iraq, and I think it points to a larger ethical conundrum. Then, I have a tendency to find connundrums everywhere I look.
The problem is this: Globalization DOES mean that ultimately we make some improvements. Yes, we do bring a more democratic system of government to a culture by integrating it into our "global village, " we may improve the rights of women, racial minorities, or smaller religious groups that are oppressed by the whole. I can't argue with that. I have even heard arguments that globalization is the ultimate means by which we can save the environment.
I don't buy the last one, by the bye. I'll side with the culture jammers, there. We consume too much as postindustrial societies. Sure we don't produce choking fumes from textile factories and coat our fields with ash, but we do eat too much, burn to much gasoline, destroy rivers without hydro plants, and use far too much plastic and cellophane, to be conisdered environmentally firendly.
This is an aside, however. The conundrum that bothers me is the cost of globalization, which is exactly what a lot of the anti-war protesters, and for that matter, a lot of the reactionary groups of the middle east are worried about.
By dragging people into our Western 21st century world we annihilate their culture as it existed. Some things I think are okay to live with losing. The abuse and subjugation of women, for example (which is a perversion of Islam, IMHO) , but others are sad, languages die, as do traditions. The television outsts the storyteller, DAT machines and turntables replace balikalikas, stuffy office jobs replace farming. I don't think its in our interest to let thoe things fade by seducing the young with Western culture and thrussting a western government on people who don't want it.
Aren't we, as pagans, trying to overcome the damage done by an early wave of globalization ourselves?
I'm not convinced democracy works, I worry that written consititutions are a form of opression, and I think our media is psychologically toxic. I point people to http://www.adbusters.org or Kalle Lasn's book for the arguments. he articulates them better than I.
The question is, how do we get rid of the bad, without destorying those old, healthy, tried-and-true Earth, Body, and Mind-friendly cultural practices at the same time? How and where do we draw our lines? I feel that blindly slouching towards democracy and free trade may be doing more harm than good.
As for good grass and easy sex... I don't care for either. I like my sex caring, and my vices THC free.
I have to stop getting my 'vox in weekly doses.
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| Yes - Know The Facts | Mar 23rd. at 9:47:13 pm EST |
by Trickster (Oceania) - wc_xemail - Web
Yes, Mr. Jones, you should know the facts.
America IS responsible for Iraqi starvation and disease. The first gulf war made sure that the country's infrastructure was destroyed. Water supplies, power plants, sewage treatment facilities... And then embargos which denied the Iraqi people food and medicine. And this war is more of the same. How many innocent civilians will now avoid starvation and disease because they get bombed to death?
Read this....... Find More info -- HERE
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| Patriotism For Some | Mar 22nd. at 7:07:45 pm EST |
by Thomas D. Jones (Las Vegas, Nv) - wc_xemail
I am morally opposed to killing. I have never thought it right, or just, or useful. But I have long accepted that war is not an object or a tool but a state of existence. The Iraqis are surrendering. They are starving. We did not starve them, their leaders did so. They fed them the lines about patriotism and glory and love of Allah, and the good people bought it. The Iraqi government used the sanctions that they themselves could have lifted at any time to convince their people that the world was against them, and they would all have to work together to defeat the world.
Many of my friends are as I once was... knee-deep in dust, wondering if today is the day. I worry about them ceaselessly. I want to be with them, I want to help them, I want to stand by them. Circumstances do not permit me to do so. I support my friends and fellow citizens. Regardless of the economic realities requiring our presence in Iraq, there is much good that can and will be done as a result of our assistance to the poor people of Iraq, " Good Iraqis ", all of them.
Protests against war are patriotic. Protests against the color green are patriotic.
When we exercise our rights we are flexing our political muscle. This is important if we intend to stay free citizens of a just Republic. To remain unquestioning and blind in the face of egregious violations of our rights is to betray all those who came before us, and all those who will come after.
As I have said before, the government of this nation does not possess the level of competence or motivation to successfully oppress the people it ostensibly represents. This nation is not possessed of any sort of homegeneity, so only in times of true and deep need to we come together.
Now is one of those times. We can say no to destruction and evil... but can we ignore its presence? Do we as Americans wish Arabs, or Jews, or Persians, or Hindus or Chinese any ill? Of course not. Because many of them ARE Americans.
It would be foolish to hate ourselves, wouldn't it? But sadly, some of these aforementioned groups do seem to wish us ill, by virtue of our nationality alone.
They're not going to check what your feelings are toward them before they kill you. This is unfortunate, and it is a result of blind obedience to doctrine.
We have the luxury (!!) of not being blindly obedient.
As you protest, and by all means do so, make sure you know what's going on first.
This is no time for Pentagon-levitating or love-ins, that time is long gone, thank the Deities! Ask what exactly you are protesting. Ask if you know all the ins and outs of this and all other conflicts. For example, the protestation of globalization is the protestation of a world-wide raising of the standard of living. It is a protestation of giving other people what we as Westerners already possess. It's very convenient for us to protest jobs and increased money and therefore the continued existence of Capitalism and thus the further enrichment of our own existences. Are you there because you know what's going on and don't like it, or are you there for the rumors of easy sex and dynamite grass? You can get that anywhere.
Hey I like granola chicks too; my girlfriend is one. And she, like me, is morally opposed to killing. I can safely say that neither of us are opposed to the enrichment of the Iraqi people by the toppling of their insane Fuehrer.
Our best bet is to send as much aid and love to the Iraqis after the war. Save your energy, save your food and fuel costs motoring to all these protests and send them to the Iraqis. They will have desperate need of it. War was inevitable and has been so for twelve years. Our ex-president only prolonged the suffering to the point that liberation would not be such a come-down for the Iraqis.
We have an opportunity to demonstrate to the world that despite our internal disagreements we can and will help those who need it.
And if nothing else, the protests help increase our standings in the world community; the fact is that it looks like so many of us disagree with our government's policy that we cannot be held accountable for its actions.
If we were really serious we would be writing letters to our Reps and threatening election upsets and boycotts of industries that would profit from these actions.
All else is the mewling of peasants; back your words with actions. I do.
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| Homeland Security? | Mar 22nd. at 5:45:01 pm EST |
by Tabhorian (Decatur, GA, USA) - wc_xemail
The first time I heard the word "Homeland Security" it sent a chill down my spine. The last time too. And each time, the rage continues to simmer ever hotter, because I know what it means. It sounded to me like "The Fatherland", and I had visions of Soviet "Block Captains" keeping track of everything that was said by people on their block and reporting it. We are becoming more and more totalitarian in the States, and when we no longer carry the standard of free speech, who will?
Rights unexercised are not rights, but mere false idols. Speak up while you still can, especially now, even if it is dangerous. I'm even scared of writing this. Frankly, I don't ever want end up saying, "... we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor". And in case you don't know, more of those that signed below that quote than not did indeed lose their fortunes, and their lives. Those men did not loose their honor however (nor did the women) . Homeland Security is playing with those sacred oaths; our legacy. It is the life blood and fire of this Nation and much of the world. We can docily sit by with our blinders firmly attached and have our generation besmirched by our shamed childrens' children, or we can take a stand and say today "THIS IS WRONG", and fix it while we legally can.
Dissent is Patriotizm.
-Tabhorian Find More info -- HERE
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| Patriotism During Wartime, Supporting Our Military | Mar 22nd. at 4:00:01 pm EST |
by December Rose (Central Illinois) - wc_xemail
Way back in the '70's, when I was a senior in high school, I spent a year as a foreign exchange student in what was then called West Germany. When I finally got up the courage to ask the old grandmother of my host family about life during wartime, I was shocked and surprised. This woman lost her husband fighting in France. Every soldier has family and friends back home - whereever that home may be. Her answer has always stayed with me.
This is what she told me (think about if any of this sounds familiar) :
They were okay with the persecution of the Jews, because they thought that the Jews were all Communists - and they thought that it was the Communists who had burned the Reichstag (the German equivalent of the Capitol building) . In other words, they thought they were going after terrorists and providing for Homeland, oops, I mean Fatherland, security.
They believed Hitler was leading invasions of liberation at first - the Sudatenland and Alsace Lorraine, etc., were, after all, German-speaking regions of their respective countries.
Hitler was democratically elected and they were being good, patriotic, citizens supporting their government and their troops.
So many people have written about "The Good German" - the people who did not speak up, who supported their government by keeping their mouths shut. I've met and lived with these people. We want to believe that they were quiet because of fear of their government - and, I believe, a certain amount of this was true, much later on . . . but, initially, it seems that a great number of them were compliant because they were being patriotic - supporting their government (that they had elected) during wartime.
Sixty-five years from now, do you want the rest of the world to refer to you as a "Good American"? Chaney, Bush, Ashcroft, et al hope so. Personally, I intend to speak up!
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| A Better Way To Spend His Time | Mar 22nd. at 2:36:49 pm EST |
by rahoorkhuit (queens, ny) - wc_xemail
I agree that just because you question the wisdom of the Iraqi initiative does not necessarily make you a traitor-- however, having read that Jesse Jackson will be exercising his constitutional right to free expression at a "peace" rally here in NY, I can't help but think, isn't there a nightclub cited for multiple fire violations somewhere that could use his help?
Cme to think of it, perhaps Jesse will end up being responsible for the deaths of more American civilians than our armed forces will be for Iraqi civilians.
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| Well Stated, From My Home State! | Mar 22nd. at 1:07:58 pm EST |
by Gloria Fiorini (Cave Junction, OR) - wc_xemail
I was born and raised in Casper, Wyoming! I'm so proud of the guys at the Trib!
Two other Trib writers, Geoffrey O'Gara and Dan Whipple, recently wrote, "When you see the nation about to make a big mistake, it seems incumbent upon patriots to at least point it out."
This has been the stance of American peaceworkers like myself from the beginning: It is patriotism, not anti-Americanism, that makes us pro-peace. We believe this war is not in the best interests of our country and our people, and THAT is why we are dissenting.
It's incredibly satisfying for me, personally, to see writers in my hometown paper (especially since Casper used to be your basic, right-wing, prairie cow- and oil-town) state these beliefs so well. Keep it up. guys! They may persuade me to go home, yet...
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| Straight From The Rough Rider's Mouth | Mar 22nd. at 12:24:22 pm EST |
by Debbie (MS) - wc_xemail - Web
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Teddy Roosevelt
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